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Author
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Topic: Paying for restoration work
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sigtauenus
Gearhead Posts: 1907
From: Beaufort, SC
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 12-20-2003 12:18 AM
   
I've found that since a lot of us have similar interests and personalities here, I can use the forum as a good sounding board/reality check. If you are not comfortable replying to this one, please pass.I'm guessing most anybody here on this forum is like me: more time than cash = saving money by doing everything yourself, and over a longer than planned period of time, and generally more concerned with practical or performance functionality than originality. I've toyed with the idea of opening up my own shop (we're talking at least 6 years down the road from now - I plan well in advance) because I really enjoy what I do, but the hangup of moving past nickel-dime parts money (ie, only funding my own projects) is that I can't help thinking about how the majority of the mustang hobby is made up of people who are just like me and probably would never pay labor except for things they can't do or are afraid to try, ie paint and maybe various drivetrain rebuilds (rearends, tranny's, engine block). That whole thing about something like 95% of small businesses in the US fail within 5 years thing doesn't help either, but I am an optimist. At the same time, I've heard rumors of some people who actually have more money than time/skill/interest, etc, and are catered by places like KAR auto group who get top dollar for the cars they put out, and small shops like the one in Pace, FL who does partial or complete restorations and was booked up a year and a half in advance (with absolutely no advertising) last time I was there to talk to him. Keep in mind I know a one man shop will never make anybody rich, but it should at least put food on the table and let you come home every night. I'm just curious as to how many of you have already or are planning to pay labor to have somebody redo your interior, or rebuild original parts, like your alternator or distributor, or rebuild and install your heater box, replace the whole front end, or just do the steering, brakes, etc. Anything. If so, what were your expectations of the work to be done and were you satisfied? Also, don't worry, I'm not fishing for business here, I've heard its never good to do business with friends-you end up losing one or the other.
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Fastback68
Gearhead Posts: 2054
From: Sucat, Paranaque, Philippines
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 12-20-2003 06:26 AM
I've put a lot of thought into this myself, and will probably open a small restoration business myself next year, for 68 Stangs only. My situation is probably very different from yours in that labor, even skilled labor, here is a fraction of the cost in the US, and any business I open up won't be my main source of income. But even so, watching others in the business and listening to the folks who wander through my gate, I think I've learned some lessons that may apply anywhere.
Here's the lesson (which may or may not be true!):
1) Specialize. Like I said, 68s only for me.
2) Go for top quality for a select few customers. There are too many folks turning out poor restorations and getting the grief that goes with unhappy customers.
3) Go for big-ticket cars. No coupes. At a minimum, fastbacks and convertibles, and preferably top of the line specs in those categories.
4) And here's the kicker -- as part of the deal, any prospective client must either provide most of the parts needed, or donate a parts car.
I'd like to hear from anyone who's actually tried this and made a go of it. Like I said, folks who scrape a meager living out of doing poor restorations are a dime a dozen here, and they don't seem very happy.
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sigtauenus
Gearhead Posts: 1907
From: Beaufort, SC
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 12-20-2003 09:08 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback68:
4) And here's the kicker -- as part of the deal, any prospective client must either provide most of the parts needed, or donate a parts car.
All very good points. Alternatively, I would want to work a deal with one of the major suppliers to buy parts exclusively from them at wholesale or at least a signifacant discount.
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mustangs68
Moderator Posts: 18865
From: Hampton,Virginia,USA MCA#39406 M&M #12
Registered: May 99
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posted 12-20-2003 11:42 AM
When I had the Motor rebuilt the Shop had me buy all the parts,now this is no problem for a motor and the workmanship was above excellent,but for body work and paint ect you better get what I need cause I ain't wastin' my time chasin' parts and paying you too...LOL..I want a written est. of the appox cost and updated every week/two weeks if there's any change.I don't want to walk in and find a $10,0000 job is now costing $20,0000 at the end  But I will pay a good price for quailty workmanship and parts..that why they are doing it cause I can't
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bill haab
Gearhead Posts: 235
From: south bend in.
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 12-20-2003 01:50 PM
Well if you think some one can do a better job then you. Thats when I start to think about paying some one. like painting & my engine. But stuff like brakes and floor pans frame rails stuff like that I can handle.The way I did it was if I can work overtime at what I do best then pay some one to do the stuff that they do best will balance out.
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 36138
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 12-20-2003 07:16 PM
I do everything except final paint myself. That why it takes me so long.------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 Open
'70 Mustang Convertible 250 I6/3 speed/2.79 Open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Loc
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
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Tom G
Gearhead Posts: 243
From: Bethlehem, Pa USA
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 12-20-2003 08:23 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mustangs68:
When I had the Motor rebuilt the Shop had me buy all the parts,now this is no problem for a motor and the workmanship was above excellent,but for body work and paint ect you better get what I need cause I ain't wastin' my time chasin' parts and paying you too...LOL..I want a written est. of the appox cost and updated every week/two weeks if there's any change.I don't want to walk in and find a $10,0000 job is now costing $20,0000 at the end :)But I will pay a good price for quailty workmanship and parts..that why they are doing it cause I can't :)
Very well put! My car is in body and paint as we speak I will expect an update if any further problems are found too.------------------
67 Mustang F/B 302 GT-40X FMS Crate engine 5 spd cable clutch 13.39 on 205/70/14 BFG @104 mph Flowmasters X Pipe 4.11 9". Body shop NOW! 03 Focus ZX3 BORLA exhaust Wings West spoiler (Arrest ME RED)
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mellowyellow
Gearhead Posts: 5860
From: So. Fl.
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 12-20-2003 10:54 PM
Do body and fender and some painting. Used to do completes but the urethanes are too toxic. Current car, a 66 cv, had to have new front hinge pillars and cowls. They're done and it was a fairly easy job-but time consuming. Also needs 1/4's, cvt drain gutter, tailite panel which I'll do. . Floors and frame rails are good. Have quit doing these, just don't buy cars that need that work. I farm out seat cover installation and cv tops. Have an upholsterer that is a retired pro. Paint is the biggest prob of all. Think I've found a good one at a shop that repairs cars for a leasing co.Re the body work, the hinge pillars were a good example of a labor intensive job. Time consuming. To get paid what this job warrants is another story. First of all, a person's knowledge in doing a job like this with good fit and finish may be difficult to charge what it's worth. Likewise with cowl work. For the hell of it, I got an estimate from a welder with automotive experience. He wanted $1800 which was quite reasonable to repair the pillars and cowl. But he had that prima donna body shop mentality that made me decide to do it myself. His pillar procedure was not to my liking. I scabbed in rust free pilar sections rather than patching. Saved a lot too! With the advent of mig welders, more and more guys are doing their own work. It's not rocket science but it requires common sense. On V-M have seen some remarkable jobs by persons who never did it before. Am farming out all mechanical work on this car. Don't know s**t about EFI's and AOD's. Having it done in my garage by a tech who is good and ambitious. Plus, he's getting a divorce! To take on a restoration as a money making venture, a person has to charge what's it going to take, time wise. Collision shops must turn dollars and volume is important. So, to just have a couple cars to do is not going to be a viable income producing situation-hence the five figure paint jobs. Guys call the KAR group rip offs, gougers, etc, but George Waydo and co. know what it takes for HIM to make a living based on his services, knowledge and investment. He is NOT cheap. "Cheap" is subjective. One person's opinion is another's "reasonable" price! LOL! The guy in Pace sounds like Salter. If it is, he's a nice guy who knows what he has to charge. Plus, he owns his property and has a smaller nut than many. To get into business today, with the cost of real estate, is not easy. The shop in Miami got booted 'cause the owner of prop. turned condo and wanted 400,000 for a 4,000 sq. ft. warehouse. And people scream 'cause he was only charging $40 per hr. for general labor. Kinda chuckle when I hear someone rant about paying an outrageous(in their opinion)price for head porting or doing a cowl. Think that all of us are good in some areas and maybe not as good in others. And some are good in all areas. I love paint and body, and not crazy about mechanical-yet I can do a lot of it. Recovering seats( is not my style. But a tech I know, put a top on my 65 GT cv that was the best I had. It was his 3rd top job!! Excuse the long post.
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sigtauenus
Gearhead Posts: 1907
From: Beaufort, SC
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 12-21-2003 02:12 AM
Pete, I usually enjoy your posts, no problem there. Salter is the guy in Pace, very nice guy with a modestly sized shop. His set-up is what I envision having someday.
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bud4660
Journeyman Posts: 13
From: Mesquite, Tx
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 12-21-2003 11:00 AM
"Keep in mind I know a one man shop will never make anybody rich, but it should at least put food on the table and let you come home every night."There is a guy here that works on newer stangs thats a one man shop with a helper from time to time. He's the one I had do some work on my 98 Vert that I didnt want to do. His prices were good. And I wouldnt even open the toolbox for what he charged. I did have to redo some of the stuff he did. But it was because I didnt like it. Sometimes I dont like the work I do....lol...The problem he has is that he rents his shop. So he has to make the money to cover that and the electic before he gets his. He even rents out one of the bays for the guys that dont have anywhere to work on their cars. His quality of work overall is real good. But between answering the phone and people that come in and want to ask questions and talk, he has to bust it to make money. But he is making a living and is happy not having to work for someone else.
I wish there was someone here in the DFW area that did restorations that could do things I dont like to do. And paint and body is one of them...
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wvcat
Gearhead Posts: 231
From: New Cumberland,WV
Registered: May 2001
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posted 12-21-2003 04:44 PM
I have been working on cars ever since I outgrew my 20" bicycle (a long time ago) and have often thought of opening up a shop. I do jobs on the side to make extra cash. A few years ago I decided it was a pain in the ass to work for people. You either have to charge enough and they think its too high or take shortcuts in order to make it profitable. I ended up working on my own projects. I usually by and sell 1 or 2 trucks per year. I buy them cheap and sell them at a profit. They might need painted a motor or a transmission or even nothing but I always break even. If you are going to make this your only source of income you are looking at some hard work to pay the bills and still have an income worth living on. I still do side jobs for people but I price them high enough that if I get them it will be worth my time.
Good luck
John
wvcat------------------
Thanks
John
(wvcat)
http://www.geocities.com/wvxr7cougar/wvcat_01.html?989286238390
70 XR7 Restomod...wvcat
66 coupe project...she needs a name!!!
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V8 Thumper
Gearhead Posts: 3936
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 12-22-2003 08:39 AM
quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
I do everything except final paint myself. That why it takes me so long.
You are familar with the Silversmoke Grey GT coupe in the link below, right? That's a five year project... and counting  ------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9" All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html
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V8 Thumper
Gearhead Posts: 3936
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 12-22-2003 08:40 AM
Five steady years, that is. I've been working on that car since 1983  ------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9" All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html
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