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  Rings: file-to-fit or drop-in & ring end gap location

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Author Topic:   Rings: file-to-fit or drop-in & ring end gap location
Pierre
Gearhead

Posts: 394
From: Near Paris, France
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 12-20-2002 08:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Again for a street performance is it worth the hassle of a file to fit ?

I am getting different infos on where the rings end gap should be: some say spaced
1/4 turn appart, Tom MONROE says:
Compression rings should be at 5 o'clock & 7 o'clock and oil rings rails 11 & 1 with the oil ring expander at noon (when looking at the engine from the front of the car)

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Pierre
Gearhead

Posts: 394
From: Near Paris, France
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 12-20-2002 08:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ooops.....I must have clicked a little too much on the rodent !

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SteveLaRiviere
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From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 12-20-2002 01:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For a street engine, filing gaps isn't really needed, just check them and make sure they are within specs.

If you do file them, use a gap filing tool. {My machine shop always let me borrow theirs} You want the ends to be straight so that the gaps are accurate.

------------------
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V8 Thumper
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Posts: 3603
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 12-20-2002 08:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's been my experience with 'drop in' rings that they tend to have HUGE gaps , like .022+ and really inconsistent. I personally like file fitting; it takes a while to do, but you wind up with exactally the ring gaps that you want. N/A applications could follow the .004-per-inch rule, plus a thou or two for the top ring; minus a thou or two for the bottom. I gapped my rings to .018 for the tops, .015 for the bottoms in a 4.040 bore Windsor. Ditto on Steve's recommendation on using a ring gapper; Summit has a good inexpensive one (that's the one I use) or borrow one.

Ring gap orientation~ that debate rages on! I like to put them 180* off one another, but by no means at 12 or 6 (thrust faces); the intake side being 12 o'clock, exhaust side being 6. I like oil expander rails at either 10 and 4 or 8 and 2, with the compression rings opposite of that so you have a staggered 'x' pattern. Each adjacent ring having 180* gap between them

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Moneymaker
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From: Lyons, IL, USA
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posted 12-20-2002 08:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Who's Tom Munroe?

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Alex Denysenko
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Pierre
Gearhead

Posts: 394
From: Near Paris, France
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 12-21-2002 09:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am convinced on the file fitting job since I DO NOT want to have to return a loose ring set !! and will definately get a tool and feeler gauge
I like the X pattern a lot more than the one recommended by Tom.

BTW: This book is great (Ford SB rebuilt book), very thorough, but what made Tom Monroe so famous in this area ? Just curious

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4923
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 12-21-2002 09:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Every motor I have ever put together had most of the ring gaps lined up when it was taken apart. And I know it wasnt put together that way. I figure the rings rotate in the lands, and so long as they arent lined up when it goes together, it doesnt make much difference where they start at because they arent going to stay there long anyways.

But I could be really wrong on this one.

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Moneymaker
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From: Lyons, IL, USA
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posted 12-21-2002 11:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Geeze.....and what do you do if you have a digital watch?

I have always installed rings 180 degree apart working my way from the bottom up.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4923
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 12-21-2002 12:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I always start them out 180* apart, but they are never still 180* apart when I take the motor apart. Generally I have 5 or 6 cylinders that the gaps are all lined up.

Am I doing something wrong?

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Moneymaker
Administrator

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From: Lyons, IL, USA
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posted 12-21-2002 05:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No Rob, you are not. It's a natural course of physics. Short of pinning or pinching the ring lands it's unavoidable.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4923
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 12-21-2002 06:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Cool.

I was told one time that the gaps lined up due to detonation, but I had never saw any signs of it anywhere else so I had kind of doubted that theory.

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jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 1923
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 12-21-2002 06:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I 've always used the file to fit myself, but this last set I got a set of those gapless type. It was actually two rings for one land and you still had to file fit the rings.

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Jerry
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag
70 Mustang retired former footbrake car

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soaring
Gearhead

Posts: 116
From: New Mexico
Registered: Nov 2002

posted 12-23-2002 06:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for soaring   Click Here to Email soaring     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For a street engine, filing is nice, but not necessary. In addition, I agree with KidVishus. About 2 seconds after the engine is fired up, the rings will not be aligned as you spent so much time getting them there. Why bother with such trivial details?

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SteveLaRiviere
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From: Saco, Maine
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posted 12-23-2002 08:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Because when you first fire an engine up and your rings aren't seated yet you want all the piston seal you can get.

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indyphil
Gearhead

Posts: 1075
From: Lafayette, IN, USA
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 12-23-2002 08:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for indyphil   Click Here to Email indyphil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you read the new issue of mustangs and fords they tell you that even for mild street engines this is not trivial. They compared total seal rings with file fit and a baseline of pre sized rings. They picked up about 20hp or something (i should read it again and be more precise) but the point is it picked up torque all the way along the curve, and it WAS significant. Read the mag anyway it has more details.
Phil

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Pierre
Gearhead

Posts: 394
From: Near Paris, France
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 12-24-2002 04:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by indyphil:
If you read the new issue of mustangs and fords they tell you that even for mild street engines this is not trivial. They compared total seal rings with file fit and a baseline of pre sized rings. They picked up about 20hp or something (i should read it again and be more precise) but the point is it picked up torque all the way along the curve, and it WAS significant. Read the mag anyway it has more details.
Phil

Can you tell us what month it was because I'll ask my inlaws to send it to me with no delay

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4923
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 12-24-2002 10:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Maybe on a really mild motor they got more power with gapless rings, but every major engine builder refuses to use them because they can make more power with file fit rings.

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indyphil
Gearhead

Posts: 1075
From: Lafayette, IN, USA
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 12-27-2002 09:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for indyphil   Click Here to Email indyphil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry Pierre I was reading it in the grocery store while my wife was picking out the Turkey. It was on our shelves now so its probably the January Issue. They showed that file to fit were much better than one size fits all. Then they showed that gapless made a little more power than file to fit. Of course their baseline was a tired engine to begin with. It was only about power output, they didnt tell you anything about life or oil control. I know very little about the subject I just wanted to tell you what they did so you could read what I read.

Phil

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SteveLaRiviere
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From: Saco, Maine
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posted 12-27-2002 09:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It was a new SBC engine, but it had about 50 dyno pulls. The pregapped rings had over .030" gap when they pulled them out. The file fit picked up about 10 hp IIRC, and the Total Seal about 18hp, I think, making 450hp in the end.

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

Be sure to remember our sponsors, Mustangs Plus, NPD, and Osborn Reproductions.

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Moneymaker
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From: Lyons, IL, USA
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posted 12-27-2002 10:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Anyone can pick up HP with a new set of rings over a worn out set.
We've tested them (gapless) on everything from mild to wild. Same results every time. Nothing, nada, nitz, nine, zero HP increase.
Our experiance has been a horse power loss on stock to near stock engines. Don't you all think that if it was such a ggreat idea that Detroit would have adopeted it years ago? FoMoCo fooled around with gapless rings in the early 60's with their Mobil Economy run Comets looking for power and fuel economy. Results indicated poor cylinder wall life, and negligable decrease in fuel consumption.
Spend you money on something more worthwhile.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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Pierre
Gearhead

Posts: 394
From: Near Paris, France
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 12-27-2002 03:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I figured that if it was such a perfect solution it would be known by now ! Plus I am not much of an early adopter/Beta-tester myself
I'll still read the article though....out of curiousity. Their articles are interesting but they never tell you the whole story...

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