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Author Topic:   Confirmation of 270H choice for my set-up
Pierre
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Posts: 394
From: Near Paris, France
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 12-12-2002 06:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As I am planning my summer balancing job on my 302, I caught the "while I am at it fever" and the project is turning out bigger than it started

Anyway, I know that there has been a lot of post about it but would like confirmation on the following:

Present set-up:
Mexican 302 bored .030 from 1971
Standard crank & rods sizes
Compression: 9.25/1
Speed-pro pistons with large cut
Performer RPM Intake
Holley 600 Double pumper
Headelbrock 2.02 alum heads (OK up to 0.575 lift)
Roller rocker by crane
4-in-1 headers
2 chambers flowmaster
T5 "worlclass" gearbox
3.50 locking differential
Present cam is Ford Motorsport Hydraulic type with 214/224 @ 0.050 and .472/.496

Objective: Optimizing performance and still have a streetable car (1500+ to 5500 is fine)

I would like confirmation B4 spending 500$ on the roller 270H set-up that:

1 - I will still have a decent low-end torque (1800-up rpm is fine)
2 - Idle will be fairly smooth (@ 750-800)
3 - I will have enough vaccum at idle for braking in bumper to bumper braking in traffic
4 - I will see a significant power increase over my present cam
5 - I really do not want a car loading-up & stalling in traffic !!

Sorry for the length ! Thanks again in advance for your feedback

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Mpcoluv
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From: Charlotte NC usa
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posted 12-12-2002 06:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv   Click Here to Email Mpcoluv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Is your existing cam a Hyd roller?
Have you looked at the newer XE series of cams Comp makes? They are supposed to make more power and still be streetable.
Look at the XE 266 cam....
It is supposed to have a little more agressive lobe profile than the 270, but the specs at .050 are similiar.

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Pierre
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posted 12-12-2002 07:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mpcoluv:
Is your existing cam a Hyd roller?
Have you looked at the newer XE series of cams Comp makes? They are supposed to make more power and still be streetable.
Look at the XE 266 cam....
It is supposed to have a little more agressive lobe profile than the 270, but the specs at .050 are similiar.

My present cam is a basic hydraulic cam, no rollers yet. And I am happy with it. I have just heard so many good things about the rollers that I am thinking of using one.

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Moneymaker
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posted 12-12-2002 10:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Cam and most of your selections are great.
Heads are too big though.

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Pierre
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posted 12-12-2002 11:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Cam and most of your selections are great.
Heads are too big though.

Well.....As for the clutch (I installed a centerforce Dual friction !!)I went a little overboard I must say, but looking at it on the bright side, I have some headroom for power improvement

Will I see a power increase from the 270H yet remain streetable ?

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Moneymaker
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posted 12-12-2002 11:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sure Pierre, the cam will show you power, but the heads are too big for the rest of the combo. With a cam limit of about 6 to 6500 and heads that don't like a lot of low lift it will make power in a very narrow range. Low end will be sluggish, and top end will run out of breath about the time the heads start getting happy. You will have a monster for 2000 RPM between 4k and 6k.

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Alex Denysenko
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Pierre
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posted 12-12-2002 12:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Sure Pierre, the cam will show you power, but the heads are too big for the rest of the combo. With a cam limit of about 6 to 6500 and heads that don't like a lot of low lift it will make power in a very narrow range. Low end will be sluggish, and top end will run out of breath about the time the heads start getting happy. You will have a monster for 2000 RPM between 4k and 6k.

It hurts to hear that but it helps !
Shall I swap the heads for the EDEL 1.90 intake or would you suggest another one ?
(I can resell my heads here for twice what I bought them for so this is not an issue)

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Moneymaker
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posted 12-12-2002 01:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes Pierre, get some 1.90 style heads of your choice. Edelbrocks are great.You will be MUCH happier with the results. In this case bigger is not better.

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Alex Denysenko
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Moneymaker
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posted 12-12-2002 01:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
P.S.
Hydraulic rollers in mild profiles are not worth the expense or effort. Been there done that too many times already.

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Alex Denysenko
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nash
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posted 12-12-2002 03:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for nash   Click Here to Email nash     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am a little confused, Which cam would be the best match for the edelbrock rpm 1.9 valve heads, the comp cam 270s 0r the 270h. What would be the difference? Also, would you not have to reset the valves every 5000 miles with the 270s.
Thanks

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Moneymaker
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posted 12-12-2002 04:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Solid cam will always give more power and versaatility.
Yes you should adjust the valves every 5k miles with a solid lifter camshaft equipped engine.
Both the 270H or S cans are perfectly suited to the heads and intake you discribe Nash. A girlyman would chose the "H" cam over the "S".

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Alex Denysenko
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Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
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nash
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posted 12-12-2002 09:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for nash   Click Here to Email nash     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The edelbrock rpm heads have 60 cc, should I be concerned in the drop in the CR if I plan on using flat top pistons with valve reliefs? They are supposed to be 10:1 with standard 289 heads. Also, do you use a high volume oil pump with the solid cam as I am curiuos how much mess this makes.
Thanks for the help

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Pierre
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From: Near Paris, France
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posted 12-13-2002 11:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Solid cam will always give more power and versaatility.
Yes you should adjust the valves every 5k miles with a solid lifter camshaft equipped engine.
Both the 270H or S cans are perfectly suited to the heads and intake you discribe Nash. A girlyman would chose the "H" cam over the "S".

I really like the idea of the 270S
Having never heard a solid cam before.... , I was just curious how loud does the clac-clac gets ?
Is it worst than than a "quiet" gear drive

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SteveLaRiviere
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posted 12-13-2002 11:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Non-gearheads will be constantly telling you "...there's something wrong with your car..."

Being in Europe, you must remember what the solid cammed vw bugs sounded like.

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Moneymaker
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posted 12-13-2002 11:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nash, if you are serious about making power then you will need to mill the heads and use some thin gaskets to maintain some high compression.
A high volume oil pump is a wonderful thing. NO mods required to use one. Make sure that you do install a billet oil pump shaft though.

Pierre, the solid lifters don't really clack as much as they click. It is a very pleasing sound and usually cannot be heard over loud mufflers with the hood closed. Sort of like a bunch of clothes driers. Especially if you use the obnoxious Flowmonsters, you won't hear anything but blah, blah, blah, blah.

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Alex Denysenko
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Pierre
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posted 12-13-2002 03:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:

Pierre, the solid lifters don't really clack as much as they click. It is a very pleasing sound and usually cannot be heard over loud mufflers with the hood closed. Sort of like a bunch of clothes driers. Especially if you use the obnoxious Flowmonsters, you won't hear anything but blah, blah, blah, blah.



I must admit I did go overboard too on the mufflers but everyone loves it here where all you can hear are diesel engines (talking about clack-clacks !! ). That includes the "gendarmes" too (french cops)!

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Mpcoluv
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posted 12-13-2002 03:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv   Click Here to Email Mpcoluv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Solid lifters sort of sound like an old pressure cooker is under the hood with your engine.

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rm302 boss
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posted 12-15-2002 12:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rm302 boss   Click Here to Email rm302 boss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have used all of the above on a street and the track i would not go mechanicalon the street.. their loud and resetting the valves will become a pain after a while.( i ran a few in my youngr days) Now mechanical roller works better but the results will be the same on the adjusting not to mention the cost. Hyd roller works very nice on the street and good on the track but the cost is high (Cam lifters and the spider is a pain to deal with). it all depends on what your building your car for street track? My Boss car was a track dog for years i am now running a hyd roller on the street and like the performance and the low maintnence of it.
I do agree your heads were way to big. i think you would have to notch the block to install 202 valves on that engine. 194 is the max, i think. the 270h is a good cam combo i ran one in my 65 for a while until i put in a 280h which was just barly streetable. it would run 14's in the 1/4 on a not so fresh motor.

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1970 Boss 302
1990 Taurus SHO
1985 Mustang GT 351W
1995 Land rover Disco
1980 Triumph Spitfire (auto-X car)

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rm302 boss
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posted 12-15-2002 12:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rm302 boss   Click Here to Email rm302 boss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just a FYI your 2 chamber flow's are going to be REAL loud.... Thats a track muffler. All the screws in the dash will all start wooking them self loose.. Been there done that. I had a 66 Fairlane with a 427 rear halfed and the cops would pull me over in residental areas for the noise..

------------------
1970 Boss 302
1990 Taurus SHO
1985 Mustang GT 351W
1995 Land rover Disco
1980 Triumph Spitfire (auto-X car)

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Moneymaker
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posted 12-15-2002 07:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hydraulic roller cams do not perform as well in performance aplications. There are profile limitations and they flat puke at 6500 RPM. This is FACT!
I've probably dynoed more hydraulic rollers than.......well, a lot anyway.
A 270H will give you great all around performance.
A 270S will give you more latitude and a greater user range. It will NOT require any more maintanance than a big hydraulic cam with roller rockers. Those who have actually ran a big juice cam with roller rockers on street cars already know that they must also be periodicly adjusted.

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Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
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69stanger
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posted 12-15-2002 09:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 69stanger     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Will getting a 270S in a 351W make the engine sound like a 289/302 because you have the firing order?

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Moneymaker
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posted 12-15-2002 11:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
They all sound alike to me.

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Alex Denysenko
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Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
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69stanger
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posted 12-16-2002 01:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 69stanger     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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Pierre
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posted 12-16-2002 02:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rm302 boss:
i think you would have to notch the block to install 202 valves on that engine. 194 is the max, i think.


Thanks for your feedback
Correct, it just happened that the previous rebuilder had installed Speed pro Hyperteuctic pistons with large D cups (D cups are great BTW ) which allowed me to installed the 2.02. I did the clay check anyway to make sure

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Pierre
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posted 12-16-2002 06:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:

A 270S will give you more latitude and a greater user range. It will NOT require any more maintanance than a big hydraulic cam with roller rockers. Those who have actually ran a big juice cam with roller rockers on street cars already know that they must also be periodicly adjusted.



Aside from what we already discussed, will the 270S have acceptable idle & vaccum level for brakes ?

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Moneymaker
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posted 12-16-2002 08:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
D cups?????? Damn boy, that's some biggun's. I quite happy with my resident pair of "B's" !


Vaccum level will be fine as long as you don't have any leaks.

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Alex Denysenko
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Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
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SteveLaRiviere
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posted 12-16-2002 08:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
D cups?????? Damn boy, that's some biggun's. I quite happy with my resident pair of "B's" !

Bs? You've been studying!

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V8 Thumper
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posted 12-16-2002 08:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Pierre, I too run that cam (270S). Much to my suprise, it pulls 13-14 hg" at 700-800 rpm idle; and that's with some fairly big heads

------------------
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Pierre
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posted 12-16-2002 08:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by V8 Thumper:
Pierre, I too run that cam (270S). Much to my suprise, it pulls 13-14 hg" at 700-800 rpm idle; and that's with some fairly big heads

Todd,
As you know, I will be in your area next august, do you think you could spare a minute so I can listen to (& see !) that beauty ?
So I will be totally reassured B4 installing it

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V8 Thumper
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posted 12-16-2002 09:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Absolutely! Drop me an email and we'll hook up

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html

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Moneymaker
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posted 12-16-2002 10:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not that I would mind having a look at those "D" cups some time.

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The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
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rm302 boss
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posted 12-16-2002 03:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rm302 boss   Click Here to Email rm302 boss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Not that I would mind having a look at those "D" cups some time.



Count me in on that....
Rene

------------------
1970 Boss 302
1990 Taurus SHO
1985 Mustang GT 351W
1995 Land rover Disco
1980 Triumph Spitfire (auto-X car)

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Pierre
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posted 12-17-2002 06:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Not that I would mind having a look at those "D" cups some time.

Here is a place where you can litterally knock yourself out: french riviera, July-August, all kinds of nationality, colors styles & shapes. Not exactly what it used to in the 80's but still worth the trip. All of my US friends that have been there came back traumatized

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10secCobra
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posted 12-17-2002 08:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 10secCobra   Click Here to Email 10secCobra     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Hydraulic roller cams do not perform as well in performance aplications. There are profile limitations and they flat puke at 6500 RPM. This is FACT!
I've probably dynoed more hydraulic rollers than.......well, a lot anyway.

Hey, I'm new here and this is my first post to your boards. I'm not here to step on anyone's toes, BUT, the statement above is just flat out not true.

My name is Marc Arnold and I run the AFM website. I have worked with Rick Anderson (of AFM) for many, many years. The hydraulic cam I have in my naturally aspirated 347 uses stock Ford lifters and 1.7 roller rockers. Valves float somewhere between 7,900 and 8,200. The AFM N-113 cam benefits from the NMRA Pure Street lobe profiles designed by Rick that have to operate with stock lifters in that class. It can be done! We have been running these cams now for 2 years. My 347 makes 474 rwhp at 7,200 rpm, with over 400 rwhp starting at 5,500 rpm. My '93 Cobra has run a best of 10.43 @ 131.6mph at 3050 race weight with this cam.

I saw this post and felt I could add some new information. There is a dyno graph on my site if anyone wants to see what I'm talking about (click the "13.2:1 347" link at top right of my homepage).

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My Cobra Page

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Moneymaker
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From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 12-18-2002 12:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Welcome to M&M Marc.
Ron and Mark Anderson are pretty good friends of mine. If you have one of their engines, your hydraulic roller lifters are about as stock as the ones in our record holding Capri. I what the rules say and how they are enforced.
We have dyno tested a hydraulic roller or two ourselves on engines much closer to what Pierre is working with. About 6500 RPM is it unless you use valve seat pressue over 200 lbs and blocked lifters. The stock lifters will pump up and cause the valves to bounce off of the seat with long duration cams even at only .444 lift. High compression dosen't hurt your HP either.
Good job on your mid ten second ET's with your 347 inch Cobra also.

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Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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10secCobra
Journeyman

Posts: 2
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 12-18-2002 12:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 10secCobra   Click Here to Email 10secCobra     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Welcome to M&M Marc.
Ron and Mark Anderson are pretty good friends of mine. If you have one of their engines, your hydraulic roller lifters are about as stock as the ones in our record holding Capri. I what the rules say and how they are enforced.


Thanks, for the welcome, Alex. You have a neat place here. Sounds like we have some common friends there. I can assure you, though, my lifters are box stock as I dropped them in myself. The shortblock was built by Jon Carls (AFM's head porter). I know Ronnie well, but am buds with his brother, Rick. I don't race in the NMRA, so I don't have to prove I'm legal to anyone, but I know many folks that do and use the cams. Next time you talk with Ronnie, ask him about the AFM pure street lobe designs.

Gene Hindman won the NMRA Pure Street championship this year with a AFM hydraulic, Ronnie's car in the past has qualified first in Pure Street, Brian Meyer ran the cam design in NMRA Renegade two years ago... all these guys have been torn down following the races - all had stock, untouched lifters or they would have been DQ'd.

quote:

We have dyno tested a hydraulic roller or two ourselves on engines much closer to what Pierre is working with. About 6500 RPM is it unless you use valve seat pressue over 200 lbs and blocked lifters. The stock lifters will pump up and cause the valves to bounce off of the seat with long duration cams even at only .444 lift.
[/B]


This is not the case with the AFM Hi-Rev hydraulic cams. Can't tell you how many dozens of different lobe profiles/spring combos were tried on the Dynojet before the magic combo was found. Again, these Hi-Rev cams are designed to cater to the folks required to run stock lifters but as you can see the N-113 (over 340 degrees advertised duration!) makes huge power in my 347. I shift at 7,800 rpm. Seat pressures are ~150-lb closed and 400-lb open.
quote:

High compression dosen't hurt your HP either.
Good job on your mid ten second ET's with your 347 inch Cobra also.
[/B]

Thanks. Something tells me I am not going to convince you on this stock lifters thing

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Marc Arnold
My Cobra Page

[This message has been edited by 10secCobra (edited 12-18-2002).]

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19964
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 12-19-2002 12:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nope!


Try one of those cams with 9 to 1 or less compression sometime.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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rm302 boss
Moderator

Posts: 649
From: Austin Texas
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 12-19-2002 01:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rm302 boss   Click Here to Email rm302 boss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
AAAAAhhh i feel the love in here....Not to mention the tesosterone....... Havent you guys learned real men take corners ( in more than one direction)... Just pulling your chains.. Sorry i couldent help it..

My Boss is hyd roller,other than a little top end gain and a few faster revs i havent seen much..
Rene

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1970 Boss 302
1990 Taurus SHO
1985 Mustang GT 351W
1995 Land rover Disco
1980 Triumph Spitfire (auto-X car)

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