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Author Topic:   scott drake fender emblems
indyphil
Gearhead

Posts: 877
From: Lafayette, IN, USA
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 11-06-2002 08:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for indyphil   Click Here to Email indyphil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I bought the running horse fender emblems from NPD,
the 289, 1967-1968 type for my 68 coupe. Turned out that when I went to put them on the holes dont line up.
I was pretty surprised, it turned out that a previous owner had already replaced the RH emblem with a repop (which was badly puitted) and had drilled the new hole for it already, so my shiney new repop fitted on that side. On the other side the emblem was original FoMoCo, and the repop from NPD wouldnt fit without drilling. I couldnt bring myself to drill my car and the original was still pretty shiney. I cleaned the wax residue out of the emblem and stuck it back on.

Did anyone else have problems with repop emblems?

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 3529
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 11-06-2002 08:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Many of the repop parts are made overseas and not exact duplicates. I had bought repop GT fender badges for my car, they looked so awful (not even close ) I didn't even test fit them. I spent at least two hours polishing the up the originals, they look sweet

Wax those babies. You'll need a soft-brisled toothbrush and some q-tips to get all the white residue off, but they'll last forever

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html

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RICKS
Gearhead

Posts: 259
From: Ocala, FL
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 11-06-2002 11:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for RICKS   Click Here to Email RICKS     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Actually, the OPPOSITE is true here. What happened is this: The Ford "service" emblem that was available through Ford parts departments through the 70's and 80's had the pins in the wrong locations, i.e. they were different than the emblems Ford used in production. Then, to COMPOUND the problem, alot of repops have been tooled through the ages using the incorrect Ford service part as the pattern! In other words, you've got a mish-mash of repro and Ford emblems out there on cars that may be either correct or incorrect with the pin placement. It's a mess, but it's also big-time water under the bridge. The Scott Drake emblem has the pins placed correctly, matching the original production holes, and I don't believe that any of the "incorrect" emblems exist new on the market anymore. The Ford emblem on your car is likely a service part installed a long time ago. This is quite common. The Drake part is correct, and tons of 67-68 owners have had to "undo" the mess that Ford started when they goofed on the service part years ago.

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19751
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 11-06-2002 11:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rick is 100% correct. Been there and done that.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"

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RICKS
Gearhead

Posts: 259
From: Ocala, FL
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 11-06-2002 11:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for RICKS   Click Here to Email RICKS     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Also, not all overseas emblems are created equally. There's some junk, but there are also several overseas manufacturers that make incredible emblems, like jewelry, FAR FAR exceeding the quality that Ford emblems ever were. Like anything else, you have to shop for quality, because it's out there. Ford "production" emblems were decent, but the service emblems (which were never held to the same standards of quality as the production runs were) that were manufactured ongoing and sold in Ford boxes are usually horrid, right out of the box. I buy alot from Drake, and I also import many emblems and letters directly from an overseas manufacturer that I have had a long relationship with. These emblems are licensed by Ford and GM, and they are light years ahead in quality and finish and paint detailing compared to original Ford emblems that I keep. If anything, they're easy to spot on a restoration because they're TOO good. Don't stereotype all overseas emblems, especially since all Ford service die-cast leaves alot to be desired. Also, back before the days of "Ford Licensing", alot of emblems were reproduced overseas leaving the Ford engineering number and Ford logo in place. Nobody was enforcing much of anything. So what you think may be an original, well, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. It's a monkey puzzle!

True story. I have several GM emblems licensed under a "concours" licensing exception. See, GM will not license any reproduction emblem if the original emblem is still available in their system. EXCEPT, when I sent them my imported samples I asked them to compare the quality to the original GM emblems that they were still distributing. The difference was so extreme, they made exceptions for my emblems, admitting the the original GM emblems were unsuitable for any concours-quality restoration. My imported emblems are listed by GM as "concours quality" alternatives to their originals! Alot of the Ford service emblems are also unsuitable.

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19751
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 11-06-2002 12:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There is also one other issue that Rick may not be familiar with. Miss-cloning!
In the early through late 60's before lawyers got the ability to sue you for smiling and copyrights weren't as big an issue, many OEM items were cloned. Hub caps were a biggie as were any type of HP emblem.
Back then they were called "copycat" items or simulated products.
As a kid, I can remember going to Warshawsky's (J.C. Whitneys to you non Chicago types) with my older brother to pick up parts. While awaiting our turn to be served, I would "window shop" and "browse". They used to have bins of simulated GM, FoMoCo, and Mopar emblems. From 5 feet away they looked like the real thing. GM crossed flags, 289 HIPO emblems with several engine displacments, T-Bird winged emblems with every displacment including 312. They all had minor differances. the bird would be looking the other way, or the style of the "409" numbers was changed a bit. These emblems were cheap and sold like hot cakes to the "wannabees". Some were self adhesive and some bolted on.
Where the problem lies is that many of these soon found their way onto cars that wound up overseas. As the restoration and muscle car market boomed, many companies use these phoney "repops" as their blueprint. When they would send their sales propoganda out to the vendors, all you got was a photo or illustration. From the pics, the stuff appeared acceptable.
As these emblems got out into the field and onto cars, you can imagine how much confusion they created. Not only with FoMoCo cars, but GM and Mopar also. Much of this garbage is still around today. We saw a ton of it in boxes or bins at the MCA show for $.50 each and up.
Just another FYI.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"

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mellowyellow
Gearhead

Posts: 5739
From: So. Fl.
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 11-06-2002 12:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mellowyellow     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ah yes!! Warshawsky's. They sold Model A and early V-8 hubcaps that said "Fool" 'stead of Ford?? Back then, a lot of that stuff was made in Brazil.

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19751
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 11-06-2002 06:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh, and how could I forget...the round chrome, red, white, and blue coiled Cobra snake emblem with the snake facing the other way. It was self adhesive.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"

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mustangboy
Gearhead

Posts: 670
From: Ont, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 11-06-2002 07:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mustangboy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just had my 68 mustang painted not too long ago and replaced all the emblems.The little pony with the 302 on it had the pin on the tail in the wrong location.It was a Scott Drake item.My supplier said that there were no other options and that Ford had moved the pins depending on build dates.I just cut the pin off of the tail very flush with the emblem.The pony has 3 other pins anyway and I put a little dab of adhesive on the tail just to be sure it didn't stick out at all, (I wasn't about to redrill my fenders either).It turned out great,look much better than the faded originals.

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indyphil
Gearhead

Posts: 877
From: Lafayette, IN, USA
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 11-07-2002 08:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for indyphil   Click Here to Email indyphil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
mustangboy,
thats the pin I had problems with too.
the one in the tail. The other three were OK.

I would have done the same thing you did, but on one side someone had already drilled the car for the repop so that was no problem and on the other side the original FoMoCo part was in good enough condition to polish and reuse without the need for drilling or modification. What a hassle though. The scott drake parts are great quality, so the spare one is on the wall in my office.

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RICKS
Gearhead

Posts: 259
From: Ocala, FL
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 11-07-2002 09:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for RICKS   Click Here to Email RICKS     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It could very well have been a mid-stream change somewhere along the way in 1967-1968 production, and then Ford used the "late" version as the service part. And we could deduce that Drake's emblem uses the original first or "early" pin configuration. Either way, it leads to confusion. And if Drake were to produce two different versions of the emblems, then what a holy mess that would be, because the majority of cars out there have been repainted and had the emblems replaced multiple times with lord-knows-what and you wouldn't know what you needed without pulling the emblems and matching them to diagrams in everyone's catalogs..... Then....I can imagine it now, someone in the packaging department at Drake getting a bunch of the two different types of emblems mixed up and mislabled, and me getting 500 pairs of "mystery" mixed-up emblems where we don't realize the error until 100 pairs are already shipped out the door and in customer's hands and the phone lines are clogged with guys saying "hey, this isn't what I ordered!" It's a pain in the rear for those who have to modify the pin or the pin location on the car, but I think the industry will stick to one standardized emblem for practical reasons.

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Fastback68
Gearhead

Posts: 1746
From: Sucat, Paranaque, Philippines
Registered: Jul 99

posted 11-07-2002 11:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastback68   Click Here to Email Fastback68     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
The difference was so extreme, they made exceptions for my emblems, admitting the the original GM emblems were unsuitable for any concours-quality restoration. My imported emblems are listed by GM as "concours quality" alternatives to their originals! Alot of the Ford service emblems are also unsuitable.

Ricks, could you just clarify this? Are you saying that some original GM emblems are "unsuitable" (according to GM) for concourse restorations, or that GM considers the repops to be concours "alternatives", meaning the originals are also OK? You could read your story either way.
If it's the former, then GM has truly lost the plot!

[This message has been edited by Fastback68 (edited 11-07-2002).]

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RICKS
Gearhead

Posts: 259
From: Ocala, FL
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 11-07-2002 12:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RICKS   Click Here to Email RICKS     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I meant that while the GM emblems were faithful originals, that isn't saying much. Original emblems are grainy, the castings not polished well before plating, the paint done slap-dash, just a replacement part. GM builds cars to drive, not SHOW cars. Our repros were executed to such a higher standard of chrome finish and detail and crispness, that GM admitted that restorers wanting the best possible product on their car irregardless of origin would probably wish to opt for the repros. So they decided to give us a "concours" license to produce the emblems as a higher quality alternative to the originals. Everything that Trim Parts makes (a U.S. manufacturer of repro GM emblems) and Scott Drake makes is pretty much head & shoulders superior in finish and detail than anything Ford and GM slapped on the cars when they rolled down the line. Industry standards for emblems among the big-3 automakers in the 60's-70's were o.k. for mass production, but don't stand up very well to today's standards. It's not just GM, Ford emblems are nothing to write home about either. I've got a '65 Mustang coupe with only 1,700 original miles. None of the original emblems or die cast on it are even close to being as nicely cast, cleaned/prepped, chromed and paint-detailed as the repros that exist today. Period. Just as we "over-restore" our cars with paint finishes and body allignment and interior tailoring and underhood finishes that far exceed what Detroit ever worried about, the repro emblems we use also contribute to "over-restoring" the cars. NPD's repro taillight bezels SMOKE any n.o.s. bezel you'll ever see. The bezels on my low-mile car are grainy, you can see grind marks in places, and the casting is not that hot. The repros look like you could bolt them to a Mercedes. There are many repro parts in general that are nicer than the originals. And of course, there's a ton that are not. That's why it's impossible to generalize on the subject. The reason chrome plating on repro bumpers isn't better than it simply has to do with balancing quality against price. Anybody who's ever payed for a show-quality replate of a bumper knows how many hundreds of dollars that costs. The Nordan bumpers are a fire-sale deal for what they are. But when you DO have a bumper "show chromed", it'll make an n.o.s. bumper or a nordan bumper look like tree trunks in comparison. I'll stop rambling, but basically the original emblems on GM and Ford cars tend to be grainy, polished and flashing cleaned-up poorly prior to chroming, and just "adequate". That's the best they could do at the time, they were mass-producing everything and trying to keep all costs to an absolute minimum. I invite anyone to look at my little 1,700 miler. It wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of even PLACING in an MCA concours DRIVEN class.

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cobravenom71
Gearhead

Posts: 779
From: Kissimee, Fl USA
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 11-07-2002 03:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cobravenom71   Click Here to Email cobravenom71     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
With all these cars being restored using the 'superior' repop trim, it kinda distorts the memory of what these cars were intended to be when they were made.
I'm sure you have all heard someone say at a cruise night "If these cars looked this good when they were new, why did most people just trash 'em. Couldn't they see what a clloctors item they would be?"
I remember when these cars were new, and I agree completetly with 'Ricks'. They didn't look that good. Not the paint, the chrome,the fit ot finish, or even the trim. nothing. They were just built to sell, not to last.
What we have all mostly done is 'built' these cars the way we wish or think they should have been done in the first place.
You know, its kinda' like re-writing history.
But you know what? Who cares??? The cars don't belong to Ford, or GM. They belong to us! So we should be able to do what makes us happy. I know I do.

------------------

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mellowyellow
Gearhead

Posts: 5739
From: So. Fl.
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 11-07-2002 04:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mellowyellow     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Bought a new 66 and a new 67. Neither one would make show! Both were dark green with black VR's The 67 had to have the front clip refinished. I made a deal with the painter to take off all emblems and fill holes and he could keep them. The 66 had better paint but the 1/4 panel extensions fit like sh*t! The 66 had the accent stripes on sides and they were poorly done! The 66 was a damn good car but the 67 was a day after holiday car!! They were not meant to last 35 and 36 years. On another post today, commented about later seats. Was having back probs and the dr. had a Cougar XR-7. He told me to get rid of the 67. Bought a new 69 Impala custom coupe. and my back probs let up a bit. Was in sales and used my cars daily for calls. Saw the 66 about 5 yrs later and it was not well, The VR had developed rust lumps underneath. By 69 when I bought the Impala, the 67 had developed rust out in the dip in the decklid at the bottom, over the rear lights. Cars I owned after the 67 were less trouble, except for a 72 GranTorino. Believe that cars built today are much better. They should be with all the technology. After the divorce from my 67 in 69, reconciled with stangs in 1981/2. Still love 'em!

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Fastback68
Gearhead

Posts: 1746
From: Sucat, Paranaque, Philippines
Registered: Jul 99

posted 11-07-2002 07:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastback68   Click Here to Email Fastback68     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well Ricks, since we've got you on subject ...
Honestly speaking, do the repop dash bezels also compare favorably to the originals? I've been holding back, thinking I should buy an NOS dash bezel thingy for my '68, but then I remind myself that I've got SIX of these things already, and everyone is cracked in the bottom left corner. Are the repops any stronger?

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indyphil
Gearhead

Posts: 877
From: Lafayette, IN, USA
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 11-07-2002 10:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for indyphil   Click Here to Email indyphil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ricks,
I didnt mean to seem like I was bashing the parts. The emblems do seem pretty fine, and if i really wanted to I could have made them fit. My flame thrower coil didnt fit the coil strap, and the ignitor unit had connectors on it that wouldnt fit through the hole in the distributor body, thats before my pertronix unit gave up altogether. Having been through all these things I just accept that some parts may need a little encouragement to fit, but in the end it all works out right. I do understand that they cant make repop parts for every little quirk in the originals. Thats why no-one makes consoles for a 68, they would have to charge 800 dollars to pay for the dies and the tooling. I am more than grateful that as a 68 mustang owner I can find nearly all the parts I need in one place, and even better than that I can get all the advice i need right here! So thanks to you and NPD, and thanks to anyone who has helped me out on here.

------------------
'68 coupe 289 C code
edel 600cfm carb, performer intake, dual exhaust

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mustangboy
Gearhead

Posts: 670
From: Ont, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 11-08-2002 05:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mustangboy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here we go again.I just took the emblems off of my sisters 66 and it has 68 horses on it.The fenders have been drilled for both pins in the tail so I guess I can't miss.The car was originally a 6 cylinder car so it didn't have the 289 emblems.Somebody put the 289 emblems where its supposed to say "mustang"on the fenders.The holes are screwed now for the mustang emblems because the pins are much bigger on the 289 emblems.

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RICKS
Gearhead

Posts: 259
From: Ocala, FL
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 11-11-2002 11:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for RICKS   Click Here to Email RICKS     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Phil, not to worry. I was just taking the opportunity to expand on the subject a bit. On the '68 bezels, I don't have any recorded "problem" with the repros cracking. Quality control on original Ford bezels is all over the charts, depending on when and by whom the part was produced. Example: I bought 30 or 40 '68 deluxe woodgrain bezels surplus from Ford about two years ago. Since Ford was constantly changing boxes, labeling processes, print colors and sizes, you could look closely at the boxes and labels, and you could segregate the bezels into several different piles representing obviously different manufacturing/packaging runs. Possibly spanning decades. The bezels in each different stack would have their own unique set of common characteristics. One stack would all be generally GREAT quality chrome, fantastic detailing, nice application of the wood applique, etc.etc.., then another stack would have awful chrome, sloppy detailing, and all of the bezel's woodgrain was peeling up at the corners from using a batch of woodgrain that had a shrinking characteristic. And then the other stacks would have their own set of pluses and/or minuses from their production run. Same goes for bumpers. Chrome Ford Mustang bumpers manufactured in the 70's were really nice. Bumpers manufactured in the late 80's aren't suitable for a Ford Tractor, let alone a car, terrible prep and detail work on the bars, followed by terrible chroming. Over the years Ford quality control is very inconsistant when it comes to service replacement parts. Sometimes you get a real nice piece out of the box, sometimes you get a part that was produced in a production run where the shop foreman just didn't care or know about good quality, and nobody ever did anything about it. All you can do (when you're not actually able to see and feel the part in person) is to order on good faith, and hope that what you get is acceptible to a reasonable standard. If it isn't, most n.o.s. vendors are willing to take the part back. As for the repros, we don't have a sturdiness problem. Cosmetically, all I can say is "they're O.K.". Nothing more, nothing less, they are what they are. A decent part for the money.

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indyphil
Gearhead

Posts: 877
From: Lafayette, IN, USA
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 11-11-2002 12:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for indyphil   Click Here to Email indyphil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
RICKS,
still got any of the good woodgrain bezels for the 68?
I know about the shrinking, peeling problem, my whole dash looks that way. I have been thinking about buying walnut veneer and doing it myself with real wood. Just wondering if you had any of the bezels that you said had good chrome and nice woodgraining. Which branch of NPD do you work at?

Phil

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RICKS
Gearhead

Posts: 259
From: Ocala, FL
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 11-11-2002 03:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RICKS   Click Here to Email RICKS     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've only got one left for sale (at the FL store), but it has a pretty serious blemish in the chrome in the center between the two large gauges, and on the rim of the speedo gauge. It's not a very good piece. It's in our inventory, but I've put notes in the computer record that it should not be sold. I've also got a couple that I hand-picked when I bought them as the best of the lot, but those are staying with me. One as an archived sample, the other as a spare for my Shelby. Our headquarters is in Ocala, FL, which is where I am for the most part.

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