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Author
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Topic: crank won't trurn
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kewljay223
Gearhead Posts: 223
From: Long Beach, California
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 10-01-2002 09:35 PM
   
ok guys. this is my first time ever rebuilding a car/engine because im only 17. so im really not too sure of what im doing. i bought a 69 mach 1 that is in pretty bad shape and the first thing that im doing is rebuilding the engine. it is also not the original engine. it is a 70' 351 cleveland. i got everything cleaned and got all new parts for it. i just finished puting the cam, crank, and pistons in. the first problem is i cant turn the cam by hand without somekind of leverage. is it ok to be like that. second, i cant turn the crank without leverage either. ive torqued and lubed and checked endplay correctly for everything. i really think i did everything right but i cant turn either one. and when i am able o turn it, it doesn't seem like anything is binding. what am i supposed to do? PLEASE HELP!!
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lyle29464
Gearhead Posts: 827
From: Mt. Pleasant S.C.
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 10-01-2002 10:17 PM
I dont think your problem can be handled by typing. It would take a month. I would recomend you call someone and let them ask a few questions then they will tell you about 20 things you need to do.
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RonnieT
Gearhead Posts: 637
From: Port Allen, La. 70767
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 10-01-2002 10:25 PM
What did you use for lube during assembly? If you used STP it takes some force to break things loose. If you are trying to turn the crank by just grabbing the snout it will be hard to turn at first. I always push on a counterweight to get things moving first. Just thought about it, you are trying to turn the crank only, no pistons in the motor yet right? ------------------
Ronnie
69 mach1 351W-4V engineless at the time!
70 Torino GT 351C-4v with a "shaker"
Mustangs and More Member #23
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mustangzrule
Journeyman Posts: 87
From: Orion, MI
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 10-02-2002 09:15 AM
Is your timing chain conected? If so, the cam and crank have to turn at the same time and your most likely problem is main bearing clearance. Use plastigage on the mains and rods to make sure you have adequate spacing. If you do not have the timing chain on, read on.Unless your heads and pushrods and lifters are in, your cam should turn freely and fairly easily. I'm mostly familiar with the Windsor family, but I would suggest you check the tension on the timing chain and reinstall the cam making sure that the bearings are not interfering with your cam. BTW, the original 351 in the 69 was a windsor, it was the only 351 available in 69.
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Mpcoluv
Gearhead Posts: 975
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 10-02-2002 10:29 AM
If you have the crank, rods, pistons and rings installed, it will be hard to turn by hand on the crank snout.
Buy a moroso crank turning socket and use a torque wrench to turn it.
Write us back with the required torque that it takes to turn the rotating assebbly.
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johnmustang
Gearhead Posts: 4504
From: Vancouver Island , British Columbia , Canada
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 10-02-2002 04:50 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 66MustangGTCoupe289:
i can't help you, but [b]WELCOME TO M&M!  Brandon [/B]
BRANDON , This is the best , and , smartest post you have ever done , you are learning JOHN  ------------------
65 2+2 FASTBACK
68 COUPE
87 TAURUS WAGON
98 F150 XLT TRITON V8 4.6, 4 WHEEL DRIVE
Member:Vancouver Island Mustang Association
M&M #1710
MyPhotoPage
MY TRUCK
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johnmustang
Gearhead Posts: 4504
From: Vancouver Island , British Columbia , Canada
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 10-02-2002 05:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 66MustangGTCoupe289:
i can't help youBrandon
The statement above is why this is your best , and , smartest post. You are not handing out bad or wrong advice , you finally admitted that you do not know JOHN ------------------
65 2+2 FASTBACK
68 COUPE
87 TAURUS WAGON
98 F150 XLT TRITON V8 4.6, 4 WHEEL DRIVE
Member:Vancouver Island Mustang Association
M&M #1710
MyPhotoPage
MY TRUCK
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Jeff
Gearhead Posts: 280
From: Moore, OK USA
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 10-02-2002 08:29 PM
In reassembling the engine, selection of bearings for rods and mains are critical. If for example you used rebuild bearings with a standard crank and did not plasti-guage them, they could freeze the crank or rods. Another thing is to get ring end gaps correct. Review your work and make sure you did everything correctly. Might help to explain how you accomplished each step.
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 33988
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 10-02-2002 08:36 PM
The key is you have the pistons in, which have a good amount of drag. You probably were able to turn it by hand before the pistons went in, right?------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150
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kewljay223
Gearhead Posts: 223
From: Long Beach, California
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 10-02-2002 09:18 PM
thanks. no i do not have the timing chain connected. the crank was grinded 10 under. the cylinders were 30 over. i got all new bearings (main and rod). i got molly rings and yes i did check the gaps. everythings cool. i used plastigage for the bearings and everything is cool there too. but i went out there again today and i loosened the rod nuts on the #8 piston and i could turn it by hand again. but i checked it and it was fine. that is whats puzzling me. i had to quit messing with it cuz i had to go to school. but i am about to go back out there and play with it some more. ill let ya know what i see. thakns again. ive been watching your convorsations for a while and everybody seems so smart and your guys are funny too.
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kewljay223
Gearhead Posts: 223
From: Long Beach, California
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 10-02-2002 09:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 66MustangGTCoupe289:
you got the spark plugs in? if those are in, your tryin 2 turn the engine w/compression.
i dont even have the heads on yet. its just the block.
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mustangzrule
Journeyman Posts: 87
From: Orion, MI
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 10-03-2002 10:56 AM
Since it's the #8 rod, I would take the bearings out and double check that they have the .010 designation on them, and then I would check for a small amount of grit or something under the bearing. It doesn't take much and it will destroy your bearing quickly if you run the engine with crud under the bearing. Experience again.With a new hone, rings, bearings and a good lube on all parts with proper assembly, you should expect somewhere between 5-20 ft lb to turn just the crank over. Add the cam and you add about 3-5 ft lb. Add the heads (without plugs) and the valvetrain and you will notice a much higher drag depending on your spring pressures and valve lift and rocker ratio. My fresh 408 turned over with about 40 ft lb. If it takes more than minor effort to turn the assembly without plugs using a short breaking bar, you have a mechanical interference that should be fixed before you run the engine.
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69 Sportsroof
Gearhead Posts: 1214
From: Valley, Alabama, USA
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 10-03-2002 10:58 AM
If I missed it, I apologize but are you trying to turn the crank with your hand by grabbing the crank snout and twisting it with pistons installed? If so, that aint gonna happen. Get a crank socket and put a wrench to it and it will turn. If it was turning before the pistons were installed then you're in good shape. BTW, how did you lube the pistons before you installed them?
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kewljay223
Gearhead Posts: 223
From: Long Beach, California
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 10-03-2002 12:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 69 Sportsroof:
If I missed it, I apologize but are you trying to turn the crank with your hand by grabbing the crank snout and twisting it with pistons installed? If so, that aint gonna happen. Get a crank socket and put a wrench to it and it will turn. If it was turning before the pistons were installed then you're in good shape. BTW, how did you lube the pistons before you installed them?
im not grabbing the snout. i put the woodruff key on and then slid the damper on a little and grabbed that to turn it. and to answer MUSTANGRZRULE, i lubed the pistons and the cylinders with regular motor oil. and even just a little crud under the bearing could cause this?
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Clark
Gearhead Posts: 592
From: Rowlett,Texas
Registered: Aug 99
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posted 10-03-2002 01:43 PM
Here goes another idea that sounds simple but needs to be asked. You mentioned the #8 rod, is this rod installed correctly? The reason I ask is on my 351w the numbers stamped on the rods need to be facing up while looking at the crank. These have to be installed on the pistons correctly or there goes the bearings and yes I am talking from experience.  ------------------
69 393W Sportsroof Deluxe
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mustangzrule
Journeyman Posts: 87
From: Orion, MI
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 10-03-2002 03:00 PM
Even ust little crud under a bearing could push the bearing up a few thousandths of an inch, enough to seize the journal. It is reccomended that you don't even put oil on the back side of the bearing when installing.
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kewljay223
Gearhead Posts: 223
From: Long Beach, California
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 10-03-2002 06:43 PM
why do the numbers have to face up? how does that make a difference???i left the backside of ALL the bearings dry. the manual said so..... so i did.
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 33988
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 10-03-2002 08:07 PM
If you look at the crank end of the connecting rods, one side has a chamfer milled in to provide clearance for the filet {rounded area} of the crank throw. They have to be oriented correctly, or you'll have BIG trouble. ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150
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69 Sportsroof
Gearhead Posts: 1214
From: Valley, Alabama, USA
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 10-04-2002 10:19 AM
quote:
Originally posted by kewljay223:
why do the numbers have to face up? how does that make a difference???i left the backside of ALL the bearings dry. the manual said so..... so i did.
There should be a notch or an arrow on the top of the pistons that will point toward the front of the engine. If they point toward the rear then you need to turn it around. And to add to what Steve said, where the two rods meet on the crank, the rod and cap should be flat.
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Clark
Gearhead Posts: 592
From: Rowlett,Texas
Registered: Aug 99
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posted 10-04-2002 10:25 AM
The notch on the pistons is correct but remember that is if whoever installed the pistons on the rods did it correctly. Check the numbers and chamfer.
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kewljay223
Gearhead Posts: 223
From: Long Beach, California
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 10-04-2002 01:48 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Clark:
The notch on the pistons is correct but remember that is if whoever installed the pistons on the rods did it correctly. Check the numbers and chamfer.
yeah, that must be my problem then. because all of the pistons are facing the same way but the numbers on some of the rods arent visible. So i guess he did it wrong then right?? so what should i do? bring them back and tell him to turn them around?
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69 Sportsroof
Gearhead Posts: 1214
From: Valley, Alabama, USA
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 10-04-2002 02:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kewljay223:
yeah, that must be my problem then. because all of the pistons are facing the same way but the numbers on some of the rods arent visible. So i guess he did it wrong then right?? so what should i do? bring them back and tell him to turn them around?
You wont be able to see all 8 numbers from one side of the engine. You can see 4 on one side and 4 on the other. 1, 2, 3 and 4 from the left side and 5, 6, 7 and 8 from the right.
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kewljay223
Gearhead Posts: 223
From: Long Beach, California
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 10-05-2002 01:36 AM
quote:
Originally posted by 69 Sportsroof:
You wont be able to see all 8 numbers from one side of the engine. You can see 4 on one side and 4 on the other. 1, 2, 3 and 4 from the left side and 5, 6, 7 and 8 from the right.
i know i cant see 4 of them from either side
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