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  OOOps.......... oil pump shaft failure last night

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Author Topic:   OOOps.......... oil pump shaft failure last night
Pierre
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Posts: 366
From: France
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 09-03-2002 03:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Went out for a spin last night with a buddy to show him how powerfull my new set up was
Got a little carried away I guess (+ the tach was disconnected cause I was testing another ignition coil)...heard this thump-thump-thump after a 6000+ acceleration (hope it was not 7.....) and saw the oil gauge down to zero , pulled right over and called a tow truck
I am not too concerned since the subject has been widely discussed in the forum and the engine ran at most 15 seconds without oil. But I can't help wondering why a brand new HV pump with the appropriate fat shaft would break .......

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Ken
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Posts: 3981
From: Prospect, Ct. M&M Member No. 31 MCA Member 49299
Registered: Jun 99

posted 09-03-2002 08:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken   Click Here to Email Ken     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I had the same thing happen once Pierre ...come to find out the bolts that hold the oil pickup to the oil pump had come loose and eventually I lost my oil pressure when they finally separated enough !!! I guess your gonna have to drop the oil pan and give it a look..........

------------------
Conciousness - that annoying time between naps.

Ken
1965 Springtime Yellow Coupe - 302GT40-4spd
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V8 Thumper
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Posts: 3529
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 09-03-2002 09:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh, I hate hearing about stuff like that

I hope everything is ok Pierre. Do you have a baffled oil pan? If you were on it that hard (causing oil slosh to the back of the pan), I wonder if the pickup simply lost prime...

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19751
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 09-03-2002 09:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Don't pass judgement until you get it apart Pierre. Hell, the whole oil pump may have broke off. I did that once.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA/MCA member
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Quote: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."

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Pierre
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Posts: 366
From: France
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 09-03-2002 09:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Living work early today to take an inside look. I Will keep you posted.

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Pierre
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Posts: 366
From: France
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 09-04-2002 03:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
WEIRD STUFF.....Shaft broke off right where it enters the pump...... the pump is stuck & will not rotate by hand....filtered the oil & it is clean.
I did find 2 pieces of wire, though, at the bottom of oil pan that are 0.032" diameter & less than 1/4" long !!! These pieces could be sections of a hydraulic lifter spring retainer clip (on top of the lifter)since diameters are the same.
Any input is welcome
.....To be continued

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Pierre
Gearhead

Posts: 366
From: France
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 09-04-2002 07:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In the event, one of my brand-new-hi-rev-crane-lifters ( !!!!) broke/lost its retaining clip, can I leave it running that way without risk or do I need to replace one/all the lifters ?
When replacing lifters only, do you need to go through the 30 min break-in deal ?

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V8 Thumper
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From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 09-04-2002 08:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ouch That SUCKS

You can replace lifters without any additional break-in. That procedure is more to seat in the camshaft lobes.

For the peace of mind, DEFINATELY replace the bad ones. I'd call Crane and tell them about it too... I'd be curious to know what they say.

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Pierre
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Posts: 366
From: France
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 09-04-2002 09:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Must have read your mind ! I just called them, they say that a lock can fail if lifter preload is incorrect (too loose). The lock then receives the entire hydraulic pressure and can eventually fail. I went over & over that operation when I did my engine and am pretty sure of my job (never heard a lifter noise anyway) but you just never know for sure ! They also recommended that I put a lock back in the lifter or replace it. No lock at 6000+ isn't safe.
They will replace the lifter for free anyway. I will have confirmation of this diagnostic by friday.

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19751
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 09-04-2002 09:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Change them all Pierre. Ask for Roy Griffith at Crane and tell him that I reffered you. He will exchage all 16 lifters.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA/MCA member
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Part time secret agent license #0089
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."

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Pierre
Gearhead

Posts: 366
From: France
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 09-06-2002 05:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yup, diagnostic confirmed Exhaust lifter on cylinder # 4 lost its retainer. I just hope I have collected all pieces. I will take appart oil filter to make sure I have the entire clip.

Thanks Alex for the referal, I am sending Roy an email today

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 33988
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 09-06-2002 08:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Damn, sorry to hear that, Pierre!

A bit of wire most likely jammed your oil pump gears and locked them up which broke your oil pump driveshaft.

Man, does Crane make crappy parts or what?

------------------
All Fords since 1977!

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MLariviere
Moderator

Posts: 3448
From: Biddeford,Me.USA
Registered: May 99

posted 09-06-2002 09:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MLariviere   Click Here to Email MLariviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
May be a good reason to get a solid cam.

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Pierre
Gearhead

Posts: 366
From: France
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 09-09-2002 04:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
More weird stuff,
took everything apart this WE, and found that 5 out of my 16 pushrods (hardened for guide plates but not chromoly) were badly worn on the upper side (rocker are crane energizer with chromoly cup) Cam is OK (checked all concerned lobes with a gauge). Lifters may not be 100% at fault here.......
I have ran this passed a few people and they are completely puzzled

ANYONE EVER SEEN THIS ?

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Pierre
Gearhead

Posts: 366
From: France
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 09-09-2002 04:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
PS: Never found the rest of my clip, not in the filter anyway. Hope it won't bit me in the A** later.

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 3529
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 09-09-2002 07:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Pierre, are you saying that the pushrod's (rocker arm side, up) tip was badly worn? I wonder if that happened after the oil pump shaft let go...

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Pierre
Gearhead

Posts: 366
From: France
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 09-09-2002 11:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yup, it is that side but I doubt that the 10 to 15 seconds that the engine ran without pressure did that much damage !

Yet I am looking at all possibilities !

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Dad Vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 564
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 09-09-2002 12:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dad Vishus   Click Here to Email Dad Vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You better spin the motor by hand with the plugs all out also. If you got anything hot on the crank it could have bent the crank. Spin it slow by hand and see if it binds any place.

We broke an oil pump shaft the same way once. Got a little piece of something in the pump and locked it up. Got the crank hot on the second throw (Clevelands always seem to spin rod bearings on the 2nd throw) and bent the crank from heat.

15 seconds without oil pressure is quite a while! Hopefully your damage isn't too great but I'd darned sure look at the rod bearings while you have the bottom apart. If anything is blue, thats bad.

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Pierre
Gearhead

Posts: 366
From: France
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 09-09-2002 12:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dad Vishus:
You better spin the motor by hand with the plugs all out also. If you got anything hot on the crank it could have bent the crank. Spin it slow by hand and see if it binds any place.

We broke an oil pump shaft the same way once. Got a little piece of something in the pump and locked it up. Got the crank hot on the second throw (Clevelands always seem to spin rod bearings on the 2nd throw) and bent the crank from heat.

15 seconds without oil pressure is quite a while! Hopefully your damage isn't too great but I'd darned sure look at the rod bearings while you have the bottom apart. If anything is blue, thats bad.


I spun it as I was checking cam lobes profiles and did not notice any binding at all.

Can I safely remove the 5 crank caps (one at a time I guess) ?
Can I/should I do that with the rods bearing too ?
Do I use the original torq spec when I put them back ?

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Dad Vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 564
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 09-09-2002 12:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dad Vishus   Click Here to Email Dad Vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
I spun it as I was checking cam lobes profiles and did not notice any binding at all.

Can I safely remove the 5 crank caps (one at a time I guess) ?
Can I/should I do that with the rods bearing too ?
Do I use the original torq spec when I put them back ?



Should be OK to do that. Alex might want to confirm that. Definitely do the mains and rods one at a time. I'd think original torque specs should be OK.

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19751
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 09-09-2002 02:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes you can safely remove the main caps, although I don't know why you need to. The clip is probably stick somewhere or metal mush by now.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA/MCA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."

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Dad Vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 564
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 09-09-2002 03:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dad Vishus   Click Here to Email Dad Vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Yes you can safely remove the main caps, although I don't know why you need to. The clip is probably stick somewhere or metal mush by now.


Wouldn't you check the rod bearings? With no oil pressure for any amount of time, bearing damage could occur, I would think. Mains would probably be all right, but I'd tend to check at least one anyway. Better safe than sorry??

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1590
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 09-09-2002 03:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
More weird stuff,
took everything apart this WE, and found that 5 out of my 16 pushrods (hardened for guide plates but not chromoly) were badly worn on the upper side

ANYONE EVER SEEN THIS ?


Yes, I once purchased a cheap set of 'hardened' pushrods. Only thing, they weren't hardened very well! About half of them got 'shaved' by the guideplates! I was furious! Luckily, no damage was done (it was caught early) and a new set of pushrods cured the problem.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
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SteveLaRiviere
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From: Saco, Maine
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posted 09-09-2002 07:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Drag a triangular file over those pushrods and verify that they really are hardened. You shouldn't be able to mar them. If you can, throw them away.

Check your rocker arm alignment, too.

------------------
All Fords since 1977!

'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19751
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 09-09-2002 07:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
10-4 on the push rods. Some say they are hardened, but they do not specify that they are hardened for guide plate. You have to read all of the fine print.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA/MCA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 3529
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 09-09-2002 07:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Some say they are hardened, but they do not specify that they are hardened for guide plate.

Now THAT sucks out loud

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68 S-code GT
Gearhead

Posts: 1129
From: Sayreville, NJ, US
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 09-09-2002 08:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68 S-code GT   Click Here to Email 68 S-code GT     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Have you opened your oil pump yet? The rest of the clip might be jamming up your pump!

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67coupe
Gearhead

Posts: 405
From: dallas NC usa
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 09-09-2002 11:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 67coupe   Click Here to Email 67coupe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i know how u feel bout the push rods those heat treated so called hardened pushrods from crane r junk DONT ever use them with guide plates i got lucky and found then quick and it still bout wore them in too

------------------
Josh
67 coupe with 351c
94 Explorer
30 model A currently rustbucket
in process 67 convt with efi 5.0 and t5

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Pierre
Gearhead

Posts: 366
From: France
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 09-10-2002 05:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
THANKS to all of you for these great feedback I do feel better about my diagnostic and confident as how to take care of it. I am having a conversation with CompCam (pushrod manufacturer) this afternoon about this problem and they are going to get an earfull

I am going to check PR for hardeness as suggested, and will also install a much thinner grid on my oil pump pick-up to prevent any further similar problem

68-S-CODE GT,
Did that, and found out that the pump had some pretty bad scars but no loose pieces of anykind

I will keep you guys posted as usual

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Pierre
Gearhead

Posts: 366
From: France
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 09-10-2002 07:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
BTW, my description may have missled you but the part of the pushrods worn-out is the very top of it, the section in contact with the rocker and not the one rubbing again the guide plates. I will send a photo to Steve to get it posted here.

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460-67Stang
Gearhead

Posts: 195
From: Southern Ohio, USA
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 09-10-2002 02:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 460-67Stang   Click Here to Email 460-67Stang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
Must have read your mind ! I just called them, they say that a lock can fail if lifter preload is incorrect (too loose). The lock then receives the entire hydraulic pressure and can eventually fail.

If your lifter preload was loose, perhaps the pushrod was taking a beating and explains the wear you see at the rocker contact point?
Brian

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1539
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 09-10-2002 04:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
...and will also install a much thinner grid on my oil pump pick-up to prevent any further similar problem...

When you say, "thinner", do you mean "finer mesh"?

When you say, "grid", do you mean "screen"?

I know - I'm maybe, "Not the sharpest knife in the drawer".....OK, big deal?

Ryan

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Pierre
Gearhead

Posts: 366
From: France
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 09-11-2002 04:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Brian,

That's a possibility assuming that I messed-up in my original adjustment unless it is the other way around, a soft pushrod that reduced preload by wearing out against the chromoly cup of the rocker.

The chicken or the eggs kind of thing

Ryan,
That's exactly what I mean, I apologize I am not a native english speaker and my words are not always the most appropriate
I just hope that this finer screen will not induce too much resistance for the pump

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1539
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 09-11-2002 08:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
Ryan,... I apologize I am not a native english speaker and my words are not always the most appropriate

No need to apologize, Pierre!!
Shucks, there are 50+yr old folks born & raised around here that I still have problems understanding what they just said!

- In "my little world", it seems like I'm always asking someone to re-state/clarify things to me! It's on me, not you!

Nevertheless, Keep us posted on your progress!

Good Luck!!
Ryan

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 3529
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 09-11-2002 08:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
I am not a native english speaker and my words are not always the most appropriate

I don't know about that Pierre... from how you write, you'd speak better english than the vast majority of native speakers!

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Pierre
Gearhead

Posts: 366
From: France
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 09-11-2002 09:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wait until you hear that accent ...........

...did come handy me in some other contexte though

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