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Author
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Topic: Changing from 302 to 351W Heads on a 302?
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Hell_Fish
Gearhead Posts: 906
From: Austin, TX.
Registered: May 2002
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posted 07-22-2002 12:11 PM
   
What all is involved in the switch? What are the pros and cons of the switch? Whats a fair price for the heads?Thanks. ------------------
Dustin C
[IMG]http://pages.moparpages.com/duster/sigs/hell_fish.gif[/IMG]
56 F-100
Mech. for wifes 69 Mustang coupe
65 Plymouth Barracuda
70 Dodge Swinger
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 26813
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 07-22-2002 01:31 PM
Nothing to it. A straight bolt in. Shouldered bolts is all you need as the 351 heads use 1/2 inch bolts.
No cons, all pros. You loose a bit of compression, but gain a bunch of air flow.  ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl
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Hell_Fish
Gearhead Posts: 906
From: Austin, TX.
Registered: May 2002
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posted 07-22-2002 02:00 PM
Valve covers are the same, right? Will I hurt anything by using the stock exhaust manifolds and will they bolt up? Do they use the push rods?Is $150 each for rebuilt heads a good deal? Thanks. I might be buying a set this afternoon. ------------------
Dustin C
[IMG]http://pages.moparpages.com/duster/sigs/hell_fish.gif[/IMG]
56 F-100
Mech. for wifes 69 Mustang coupe
65 Plymouth Barracuda
70 Dodge Swinger
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Hell_Fish
Gearhead Posts: 906
From: Austin, TX.
Registered: May 2002
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posted 07-22-2002 02:23 PM
One last question. What head gasket do you use? The 302 or the 351W.
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 26813
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 07-22-2002 02:33 PM
Head gaskets are the same. You will use 351 intake gaskets though. Exhaust manifolds will fit but they will cost you 25 HP!!!!!!!!
------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl
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67mike
Gearhead Posts: 166
From: Arab,AL
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 07-22-2002 03:26 PM
Not to butt in on your topic, But if you were to use 351 heads with flat-top pistons would that be okay compression wise? I have some hedmann hedders to use justtrying to see some options - TIA Mike------------------
'67 coupe, factory R* code (Rust Code)
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/67mike.jpg
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Hell_Fish
Gearhead Posts: 906
From: Austin, TX.
Registered: May 2002
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posted 07-22-2002 03:47 PM
Good question 67Mike. The more info the better.  ------------------
Dustin C
[IMG]http://pages.moparpages.com/duster/sigs/hell_fish.gif[/IMG]
56 F-100
Mech. for wifes 69 Mustang coupe
65 Plymouth Barracuda
70 Dodge Swinger
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Hell_Fish
Gearhead Posts: 906
From: Austin, TX.
Registered: May 2002
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posted 07-23-2002 08:33 AM
I got the heads last night. I will try to put them on later this week. Gotta hit the performance shop and get the gaskets and bolts I will need. New question. These heads seem to have an extra cooling passage. These will be blocked off, right?------------------
Dustin C
[IMG]http://pages.moparpages.com/duster/sigs/hell_fish.gif[/IMG]
56 F-100
Mech. for wifes 69 Mustang coupe
65 Plymouth Barracuda
70 Dodge Swinger
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 26813
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 07-24-2002 02:28 PM
That's why you will use 351 intake gaskets, or better yet just get some #1250 Fel-PRo's. ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator/ non 65-66 Mustang owner sensitivity co-ordinator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl
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Hell_Fish
Gearhead Posts: 906
From: Austin, TX.
Registered: May 2002
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posted 07-24-2002 02:51 PM
Yeah, I will get the Fel-Pro's. On a good note, the maker of the EZ out kit I bought is going to help me pay for my new heads. Not much, but it would pay to have the EZ out removed by a pro. ------------------
Dustin C
56 F-100
Mech. for wifes 69 Mustang coupe
65 Plymouth Barracuda
70 Dodge Swinger [This message has been edited by Hell_Fish (edited 07-24-2002).]
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Rory McNeil
Gearhead Posts: 1615
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 07-24-2002 06:10 PM
Depending on the pistons & heads on your current 302, you may even pick up some compression. On my 78 Fairmonts original (but recently rebuilt at the time) 302, it had the flat top pistons with eyebrows, & the D8 smogger heads with the large 69cc chambers. About 6 or 7 years ago, I installed a pair of C9 351W heads with the 58cc chambers.This picked up the compression by almost a full point. The heads were given new guides, hardened exh. seats,new stock sized (1.84"I, 1.54"E) valves, & a regular machine shop valve job. I used the original head bolts, but with Mr. Gasket head bolt washers (SB Chev. application), & the intake gaskets were the later (78?&up) versions with the large square coolant passages, which covered the "L" shaped 351W passages just fine. With these heads, I knocked 6 tenths of my 1/4 mile ET`s, & the now 9.2-1 compression ratio still lets me run fine on regular gas.------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed 10.20@130mph
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed 12.8@105mph
85 Mustang NHRA Stocker under construction, 302 5 speed
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ice'68
Gearhead Posts: 127
From: Fresno, CA
Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 07-24-2002 09:08 PM
Nice Sig ya got there Dustin
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Gearhead
Gearhead Posts: 2177
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 07-25-2002 12:40 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Rory McNeil:
Depending on the pistons & heads on your current 302, you may even pick up some compression. On my 78 Fairmonts original (but recently rebuilt at the time) 302, it had the flat top pistons with eyebrows, & the D8 smogger heads with the large 69cc chambers. About 6 or 7 years ago, I installed a pair of C9 351W heads with the 58cc chambers.This picked up the compression by almost a full point. The heads were given new guides, hardened exh. seats,new stock sized (1.84"I, 1.54"E) valves, & a regular machine shop valve job. I used the original head bolts, but with Mr. Gasket head bolt washers (SB Chev. application), & the intake gaskets were the later (78?&up) versions with the large square coolant passages, which covered the "L" shaped 351W passages just fine. With these heads, I knocked 6 tenths of my 1/4 mile ET`s, & the now 9.2-1 compression ratio still lets me run fine on regular gas.
Very interesting Rory!! I am looking at a similar swap onto my little 302 in the next year. I have the stock 1979 smogger heads (69 cc chambers?) on my car still, and would be switching to a set of '69 351 heads with the 1.84/1.54 valves as well. Would I be looking at a similar increase in compression? My pistons are cast flat-tops with eyebrows, so it sounds like we have VERY similar set ups. I'm already very happy with the way my engine is running, and if I could bump the compression a point, plus increase the flow at the same time, I would be an extremely happy camper. I'm starting to think that I should take the engine apart (again) and put in a set of forged TRW pistons, stronger rods and balance the whole rotating assembly!  Geez, us car guys are just never satisfied, are we! ------------------
Cheers,
Ian
M&M Member #395
-------------------
'79 Mustang Indy 500 Pace Car
Ian's Pace Car Website
Vancouver Island Mustang Association Website
Indy Pace Car Registry of Mustangs Official Website "A friend will bail you out of jail after you do something stupid... a real friend will be sitting beside you saying 'That was SO COOL!!'".
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Rory McNeil
Gearhead Posts: 1615
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 07-25-2002 02:48 PM
Yes, Ian, your 79 short block & heads would be identical to my 78 Fairmonts. Well worth the swap. As for the forged pistons,yes, they are better than cast units, but I origionaly rebuilt my engine bone stock almost 10 years ago, & used cheap, cast Badger stock style replacement (.040),& stock rods. I`ve put over 60,000 miles on this engine, and must have 1,000 1/4 mile dragstrip runs on it. It still doesn`t burn any oil, nor does it have any piston slap, so for a mild engine, the cast pistons work fine.------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed 10.20@130mph
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed 12.8@105mph
85 Mustang NHRA Stocker under construction, 302 5 speed
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Hell_Fish
Gearhead Posts: 906
From: Austin, TX.
Registered: May 2002
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posted 07-25-2002 02:48 PM
Thanks Ice,
I know its not a Mustang, but its so cool. Thanks everyone. I will hopefully driving the 69 around this weekend. Im not sure what kind of pistons I have. The engine is 0.030 over, so they are not original.The heads I got were 69 351w and look good and have new seats installed.
Thanks Everyone. ------------------
Dustin C
56 F-100
Mech. for wifes 69 Mustang coupe
65 Plymouth Barracuda
70 Dodge Swinger [This message has been edited by Hell_Fish (edited 07-25-2002).]
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Gearhead
Gearhead Posts: 2177
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 07-25-2002 03:37 PM
Sounds just like my combo Rory. That's excellent! I did a stock rebuild, took the block 0.040 over with the cast flat tops. Glad to hear that this type of combo can stand some abuse! The stock heads are definitely my bottleneck now. I'll see about getting those C9 1969 heads in the fall, do some port work on them and get them on the engine for next spring.I'm going to have to get this car to the track sometime and see how well it actually runs. It sure feels fast to me... but then I guess it would after dumping the stock 2-bbl carb/intake, single exhaust, stock cam and 3.08 gears for my new set up ( https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000646.html ). ------------------
Cheers,
Ian
M&M Member #395
-------------------
'79 Mustang Indy 500 Pace Car
Ian's Pace Car Website
Vancouver Island Mustang Association Website
Indy Pace Car Registry of Mustangs Official Website "A friend will bail you out of jail after you do something stupid... a real friend will be sitting beside you saying 'That was SO COOL!!'".
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fastcomet289
Gearhead Posts: 140
From: ventura ca
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 07-25-2002 10:08 PM
will the 351 heads also fit on a 289?------------------
1970 mach1 351c
1965 comet 289
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Rory McNeil
Gearhead Posts: 1615
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 07-26-2002 01:25 AM
Yup, but you WILL lose quite a bit of compression, unless you have domed pistons.------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed 10.20@130mph
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed 12.8@105mph
85 Mustang NHRA Stocker under construction, 302 5 speed
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67mike
Gearhead Posts: 166
From: Arab,AL
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 07-26-2002 10:16 AM
If I go to the junkyard for heads, What do I need to look for to go about using 351 heads for this swap? Head type, years, codes. Mike
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Rory McNeil
Gearhead Posts: 1615
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 07-26-2002 12:27 PM
If the heads are on the engine still, you can`t tell the year or casting date, as these numbers are on the bottom (head gasket side) Some clues to identify the earlier heads, is they have 16 intake manifold bolts instead of the 12 used on the 289-302,& later 351W heads. Also, the early heads take the larger 13/16" spark plugs instead of the 5/8" plugs. If the intake is off, the coolant passages are "L" shaped, rather than the square or rectangular shape. Sometime in the mid-late 70`s, the 302 & 351W heads were identical, other than the larger head bolt holes, as the 289-302 has 7/16" head bolts, while the 351W uses 1/2". The most desireable 69-70 castings will have the C9 or D0 prefix on the casting #. I have also been told that all the 351W casting until 1975 were the same, but I can`t confirm or deny that. These heads will also use the cast iron "rail" rockers, with the "bottleneck" (non adjustable) studs.When at the wrecking yard, be observant! The heads I have on my car (C9`s) were found on a 77 Granada with a 302, the only way I knew they were 351W heads was because somebody earlier on had bought the aftermarket alum. intake, so the "L" shaped coolant passages were readily visable. I still didn`t know that they were the early castings at that time, but considering someone went to the trouble of doing the swap, I figured it was worth pulling 1 head to check. Got lucky! Paid $40.00 for the pair as cores, The valves were all bad, also needed guides, & I had hardened exhaust seats installed. With the huge selection of Motorsport & aftermarket heads available for the SB Ford, the OE Windsor heads are not as much in demand anymore, but for those on a tight budget, they are still a worthwhile swap.------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed 10.20@130mph
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed 12.8@105mph
85 Mustang NHRA Stocker under construction, 302 5 speed
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67mike
Gearhead Posts: 166
From: Arab,AL
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 07-27-2002 02:48 PM
I hate to sound like an idiot, but do the 351's have 351 stamped under the valve cover? Just checking. Mike
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Hell_Fish
Gearhead Posts: 906
From: Austin, TX.
Registered: May 2002
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posted 07-29-2002 01:59 PM
I bought the spacers because I couldn't find the stepped bolts. They work nice.------------------
Dustin C
[IMG]http://pages.moparpages.com/duster/sigs/hell_fish.gif[/IMG]
56 F-100
Mech. for wifes 69 Mustang coupe
65 Plymouth Barracuda
70 Dodge Swinger
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itzli
Journeyman Posts: 5
From: longview, Wa, Usa
Registered: Feb 2005
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posted 02-08-2005 11:02 PM
do you use a 302 intake or a 351? or does it natter? i'm wanting to try this too, already bought the heads
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 26813
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 02-08-2005 11:18 PM
Welcome to M&M !289-302 intake is used. ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,'04 &'05
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com [This message has been edited by Moneymaker (edited 02-08-2005).]
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68 S-code GT
Gearhead Posts: 2968
From: Sayreville, NJ, US
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 02-09-2005 08:22 AM
Anybody know what happened to Dustin?------------------
Ed S. 68 S-code FB GT 4spd(now C6)/3.25 PS PDB
68 J-code(now 289) Cp Sprint"B" C4/3L00-9" PDB PS AC Bla-Bla-Bla
99 F150 XLT Ext/cab, 4X4, 5.4L, 3L55
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Hell_Fish
Gearhead Posts: 906
From: Austin, TX.
Registered: May 2002
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posted 02-09-2005 08:33 AM
Im still around.
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68 S-code GT
Gearhead Posts: 2968
From: Sayreville, NJ, US
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 02-09-2005 05:31 PM
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wvcat
Gearhead Posts: 298
From: New Cumberland,WV
Registered: May 2001
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posted 02-09-2005 09:44 PM
I just put together a 302 with 69 windsor heads. The early heads also have 4 extra intake bolt holes that are in the water passage. I pluged the holes just to be sure no water got into the wrong places.
John------------------
Thanks
John
(wvcat)
http://www.geocities.com/wvxr7cougar/wvcat_01.html?989286238390
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeo7ta1/
Thanks
John
(wvcat)
http://www.geocities.com/wvxr7cougar/wvcat_01.html?989286238390
70[/URL]
[URL=http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeo7ta1/XR7[/URL]Restomod...wvcat
66 coupe project...she needs a name!!!
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itzli
Journeyman Posts: 5
From: longview, Wa, Usa
Registered: Feb 2005
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posted 02-10-2005 11:47 AM
those shoulder bolts, i went to the local parts store, and got a quote of 169$ for a set. is that right? or should i keep looking
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Hell_Fish
Gearhead Posts: 906
From: Austin, TX.
Registered: May 2002
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posted 02-10-2005 12:17 PM
I want to say that the spacers I used cost over $60, so with that in mind, that price sounds about right.------------------
Dustin C
"The Mopar Guy!"
CRC Motorsports
56 F-100
Mech. for wifes 69 Mustang coupe 302 with 69 351W heads and Offy 4bbl intake, C4, Granada disc brakes, Mach 1 springs, Boss 302 sway bar, 8" open
65 Plymouth Barracuda
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68 S-code GT
Gearhead Posts: 2968
From: Sayreville, NJ, US
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 02-10-2005 01:15 PM
Ford did have M-6065-C289 for about $50.Jegs has ARPs for $110
http://www.jegs.com//cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=8760&prmenbr=361
Found these for $92
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=168498&prmenbr=361 These bushings might also work with the 302 bolts. $46
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=17303&prmenbr=361
Summit has them for the same $110
http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=esearch.asp&N=100& Ntk=PartSearch&Ntt=ARP-254-3708&x=12&y=9
[This message has been edited by 68 S-code GT (edited 02-10-2005).]
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Hell_Fish
Gearhead Posts: 906
From: Austin, TX.
Registered: May 2002
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posted 02-10-2005 01:42 PM
These bushings might also work with the 302 bolts. $46
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=17303&prmenbr=361 Thats what I used. ------------------
Dustin C
"The Mopar Guy!"
CRC Motorsports
56 F-100
Mech. for wifes 69 Mustang coupe 302 with 69 351W heads and Offy 4bbl intake, C4, Granada disc brakes, Mach 1 springs, Boss 302 sway bar, 8" open
65 Plymouth Barracuda
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Hell_Fish
Gearhead Posts: 906
From: Austin, TX.
Registered: May 2002
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posted 02-10-2005 01:44 PM
Ed, none of the bolts you listed are correct. The correct bolts are wider near the top ans smaller at the threaded end.------------------
Dustin C
"The Mopar Guy!"
CRC Motorsports
56 F-100
Mech. for wifes 69 Mustang coupe 302 with 69 351W heads and Offy 4bbl intake, C4, Granada disc brakes, Mach 1 springs, Boss 302 sway bar, 8" open
65 Plymouth Barracuda
IP: Logged |
itzli
Journeyman Posts: 5
From: longview, Wa, Usa
Registered: Feb 2005
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posted 02-17-2005 08:42 PM
is it really just a bolt on and rdy to go? cause i've read many other forums where they talk about having to shave down your intake or shaving this, that.
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whiteknight289
Gearhead Posts: 1391
From: Wheaton, IL, USA
Registered: Mar 2004
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posted 02-17-2005 10:23 PM
No intake mods necessary. The heads are dimensionally the same, using the same intake manifold and the same exhaust. Where they are different is when you have them on a 351w block, because the block is wider it requires a wider intake, and it rotates the exhaust outward slightly.
But on a 289 or 302, use the same intake and exhaust as you would now.
Scott
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68 S-code GT
Gearhead Posts: 2968
From: Sayreville, NJ, US
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 03-07-2005 10:26 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Hell_Fish:
Ed, none of the bolts you listed are correct. The correct bolts are wider near the top ans smaller at the threaded end.
They say that the bolts are stepped so you would think that the threads were the smaller 302 and the end at the bolt head was larger for the 351 head. ------------------
Ed S. 68 S-code FB GT 4spd(now C6)/3.25 PS PDB
68 J-code(now 289) Cp Sprint"B" C4/3L00-9" PDB PS AC Bla-Bla-Bla
99 F150 XLT Ext/cab, 4X4, 5.4L, 3L55
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BornInAFord
Gearhead Posts: 533
From: Bend, OR, USA
Registered: Dec 2002
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posted 03-07-2005 11:15 AM
Would the step-down washers and stock 302 head bolts be cheaper than the stepdown bolts? They use them a lot on aluminum heads which are all set up for 351W boltholes. Jegs, Summit and others carry them from Edelbrock.
Daniel
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Rory McNeil
Gearhead Posts: 1615
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 03-07-2005 12:45 PM
The Mr. Gasket head bolt washers I used were simple, flat hardened washers, for a SB Chev. Thay cost about $10.00 if I remember correctly. Never had a problem. Don`t forget, the heads are located to the block with the dowels, I wouldn`t worry too much about the washers being stepped.------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed 10.20@130mph
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed 12.8@105mph
85 Mustang NHRA M/Stock 302 5speed. [email protected]
59 Meteor (Canadian Ford) 2 dr sedan 332, auto
74 F350 ramp truck 390 4spd
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Hell_Fish
Gearhead Posts: 906
From: Austin, TX.
Registered: May 2002
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posted 03-07-2005 03:26 PM
The dowels are there for alignment, not to hold in place. Don't skimp. As for whats cheaper? No idea, the inserts is what was on hand at the store I went to, so I went with that.------------------
Dustin C
"The Mopar Guy!"
CRC Motorsports
56 F-100
Mech. for wifes 69 Mustang coupe 302 with 69 351W heads and Offy 4bbl intake, C4, Granada disc brakes, Mach 1 springs, Boss 302 sway bar, 8" open
65 Plymouth Barracuda
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