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  Hot 460 Starter Problem - help!

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Author Topic:   Hot 460 Starter Problem - help!
460-67Stang
Gearhead

Posts: 195
From: Southern Ohio, USA
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 05-06-2002 07:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 460-67Stang   Click Here to Email 460-67Stang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm having trouble with the starter on my 460. When it gets hot (real hot), it tends to crank slowly and can hang up to the point that it stops cranking. In fact it popped a fuse on me!!!! Yesterday I had to
tap the starter with a hammer to get it to disengage from the flex plate. The
starter works great when it's cold or even warm, but when it gets hot it acts
up.

I'm running shorty headers that are about 1 1/2" from the starter. I realized
early on that I might have a heat problem, so I bought one of those heat
insulator "blankets" that's supposed to insulate the starter from the heat. I
wrapped it all around the starter and I thought it would do the job, but the
starter still gets hot. I think the blanket is doing it's job, but perhaps not. Could heat be coming in from the flex plate area? I'd think not.

The starter is a CVR high torque unit, but I don't think that relates to the
problem because my stock Ford type starter behaved the same way. I'm curious,
does the flex plate or something else is warping slightly under heat and causes
the starter gear to get out of alignment with the flex plate? So much so that
the starter hangs up?

Oh yea, I had to use one of those spacers in order to get hte starter to line up properly. This is required according to CVR.

Any ideas or hints on this problem? Anyone else experienced a hot starter
problem like this?
Thanks,
Brian

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472ci in a '67 Coupe
472ci-67mustang.com http://www.geocities.com/slariviere/460-67Stang.html
---------->>>>> Got Displacement? <<<<<------------

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6602
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 05-06-2002 09:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Brian,

It could be that the engine gets harder to turn over when it's hot. How much timing is in the motor at idle? How fresh/tight is the engine?

SteveW

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460-67Stang
Gearhead

Posts: 195
From: Southern Ohio, USA
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 05-06-2002 10:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 460-67Stang   Click Here to Email 460-67Stang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Steve - You know I'm embarrasesd to say I don't know my total timing. The distributor (New Duraspark II unit) is set at about 11 degres I think (read at the timing mark on the crank). Don;t know what timing the distributor has built in it. I'll throw a timing light on it and get back to you.

Also, I'm running a Duraspark ignition module which has the "starting wire" on it. If I remember what I read correctly, it's supposed to advance or retard the timing (can't recall which) when the key is in the start position and the starter is cranking, so that the motor turns over easier. Mabey I have it wired up wrong????

I'll check the timing and get back to you Steve. Thanks!

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460-67Stang
Gearhead

Posts: 195
From: Southern Ohio, USA
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 05-06-2002 10:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 460-67Stang   Click Here to Email 460-67Stang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh yea, you asked how fresh the motor is. It has 500 miles on it. It's not real tight though. I stayed towards the high side of the main and rod bearing clearances. I want to say the Mains are at .003, but I can't recall exactly. I do know it was at the upper limit of the new engine specs though.

I assume a tight motor would be harder for the starter to turn, right?
Brian

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6602
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 05-06-2002 10:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah especially when it's hot.
Try retarding the timing next time it's hot and see if that lets it crank easier.

SteveW

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mustangboy
Gearhead

Posts: 670
From: Ont, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 05-07-2002 02:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mustangboy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Make sure you have a good heavy gauge cable running from you solinoid to your starter.You also should have a battery with 800 or more cold cranking amps.

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Pierre
Gearhead

Posts: 366
From: France
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 05-07-2002 05:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pierre   Click Here to Email Pierre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Have you changed your starter ?

I did get the same problem on a rebuilt starter, after going through all the possibilities mentionned, I dismounted the starter and realized that the bearing inside the starter just below the cranking gear had been pourly repacked. I could not turn it by hand when cold ! It was so bad hot, that it would'nt crank the engine.(I have had a lot of problems with rebuilt parts, living in France, returns are not an option so I have to work it out somehow !!)

Good luck

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 3529
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 05-07-2002 09:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My Papa's '63 429 Galaxie was exhibiting the identical symptom. With a volt meter, I found the solenoid was only conducting 9+ volts after warm-up... the damndest thing. A quickie trip to Auto Zone and $6 latter, problem solved

I've always run multiple grounds; one from the {-} battery post to the block, and another from that block ground point to the frame, with yet another from the frame or block to the body. Electricity needs a full, complete circuit. The lights will be brighter, alt charges more efficently, starter cranks faster, etc.

About those shorty headers... where'd you get them? Got any pics you can email me? My pop wants to put headers in that 429 Galaxie, but it's lowered some. I don't think full length headers are gonna fit without scraping

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jkilroy
Gearhead

Posts: 1744
From: Vicksburg, MS
Registered: Dec 99

posted 05-07-2002 11:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jkilroy   Click Here to Email jkilroy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My 390 can be quite hard to start when hot, and timing changes make a big difference. I replaced my battery cables and ground cables with the biggest I could find. That helped a little, while backing the timing off even just two degrees makes a huge difference. MSD makes a unit called the starter saver that backs off your timing 10 degrees during cranking. It is designed for race engines with locked out timing but would probably be helpful for hard to start street engines.

------------------
Jay Kilroy
68' Fastback GT 390
"No such thing as a cam thats too big"

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 33988
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 05-07-2002 06:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 460-67Stang:
I'm running shorty headers that are about 1 1/2" from the starter. I realized early on that I might have a heat problem, so I bought one of those heat insulator "blankets" that's supposed to insulate the starter from the heat. I wrapped it all around the starter and I thought it would do the job, but the starter still gets hot.

Are you sure it's not just holding in the heat? Better would be a shield that would isolate the heat from the header and allow air flow around/by the starter.

------------------

'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip

MCA Member # 47773

"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
- Voltaire

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460-67Stang
Gearhead

Posts: 195
From: Southern Ohio, USA
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 05-08-2002 09:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 460-67Stang   Click Here to Email 460-67Stang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'll try and retard the timing a degree or so and see what happens.

I'm running a 1000 CCA battery with a 2 Guage wire going to the starter. The engine is grounded to the front frame rame. I'm pretty certain I'm getting a full 12v charge, but I'll check with the voltmeter.

The starter I'm using is a new CVR unit from Jegs. It's a very nice starter and I don't think it is the problem....not yet anyway!

I wasn't aware that MSD made a device to retard the engine during starting. I'll have to check that out!

V8Thumper - there's a set of long tube 249/460 headers at ebay that might work for you: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1826215411

The shortys I'm running came from Ford Powertrain Applications, but I can't recommend them due to poor fit and the damn chroime is chipping off all over. They do route the exhaust down and out I guess.

I'll post a picture or two on my site in a day or so. Check back at www.472ci-67mustang.com

Thanks for yur help guys!
Brian

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 3529
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 05-08-2002 09:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the info Brian. BTW, sweet ride!

I'm not ready to take a chance on ebay headers... the 429 in my papa's car isn't exactally shoe-horned in, but 'extra' room for headers just isn't there. That's a buncha motor

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mustangboy
Gearhead

Posts: 670
From: Ont, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 05-10-2002 02:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mustangboy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
460-67stang when you say your shortie headers were a poor fit do you mean on the engine or in the car?

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460-67Stang
Gearhead

Posts: 195
From: Southern Ohio, USA
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 06-06-2002 11:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 460-67Stang   Click Here to Email 460-67Stang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
mustangboy - The headers fit the engine great but they hit the shock tower.

Follow up:
I found the solution to my starter overheat problem...at WAL-MART!!! Did you know Wal Mart sells a custom 385 block starter shield? Yup, they do but for some reason they call it a "two layer aluminum cookie sheet". :D

It's a two layer aluminum cookie sheet that is already finished very nicely. The two layers create a nive air pocket which insulates the starter well. I created a patter out of cardboard and them transferred the pattern to the sheet. It trimed real well and was easy to bend to shape. The edges are already crimped, but I did have to cut one side for fit. I just riveted it in a couple spots using a washer between the two aluminum sheets to keep the air gap. It ended up looking very professional, believe it or not!

And it was only around $8.00. No more overheated starter problems!!

Thanks for your help M&M'rs!
Brian

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Gary
Gearhead

Posts: 725
From: Sarasota, Fla. USA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-07-2002 06:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gary   Click Here to Email Gary     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Brian, good going on the alum. sheet for starter, personally I think the wrap stuff sucks and does nothing! I have had problems with my exhaust (mufflers) over heating the floorboards thus melting my carpet. I then wrapped them with that exspensive(no names) wrap completely and then even layed some under the carpet and still had the exact same problem. I then got two sheets of alum. and sandwiched washers between the sheets using rivets. This created an airspace between the sheets.
Once I installed the sheet/s between the floor and the mufflers the problem was solved and the floors now barely even get warm
Put that wrap where it belongs.....in the trash!

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