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Author Topic:   4speed swap problems..
H8CHEVY
Gearhead

Posts: 258
From: Southern Cali
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 02-12-2002 01:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for H8CHEVY   Click Here to Email H8CHEVY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ok i got a weird one here.. I swapped a 4 speed out of a 66 289 coupe into my 66 coupe. everything went fine except now I cant get a starter to fit. I dont have a core starter to go off of so. I have looked the numbers up on the tranny and its in fact the orig tranny from that car. i have tried autolite starters 3132 and 3124. i have yet to count the teeth on the flywheel. is there anyway to tell what flywheel i have numbers markings etc?? also any guesses on starters to try, the two i listed dont fit snug up against the block plate. teh whole on the block plate is a hair to small for the starter to fit flat to it.

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ccode67
Gearhead

Posts: 1370
From: douglasville,ga,usa
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 02-12-2002 08:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ccode67   Click Here to Email ccode67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The starters are different from automatic to manual, different diameter nose, did you use the correct block plate? Try going to an auto parts store and comparing the starters, the area that goes through the block plate is where the difference is, I believe the depth of the nose is different also (?) Good luck.

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 18575
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-12-2002 11:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The 3132 is the correct industry number. 3124 is for an automatic. Did you use a stick or automatic block plate? They are different.

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Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
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H8CHEVY
Gearhead

Posts: 258
From: Southern Cali
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 02-12-2002 11:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for H8CHEVY   Click Here to Email H8CHEVY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I used the manual block plate, not the auto block plate for sure. I did compare the nose cones, and I tried both starters just for the heck of it. I will count the flywheel teeth after work tonight, ma by that will help me figure this out??? would it be possi ble the flywheel is out of a later model mustang?? how can i tell?? thanks

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 18575
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-12-2002 12:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If the flywheel is out of a late model 5.0 Mustang it will have a big old nasty weight hanging on it. By the way, just what part does not fit? Does the nose fit the bell housing ok? There is the possibility that the nose on the 3132 that they gave you was not correct. It should be noticibly smaller than the 3124. I see that often.

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Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
US Class Nationals link

[This message has been edited by Moneymaker (edited 02-12-2002).]

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1363
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 02-12-2002 02:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There are two possible flywheels and bellhousings. One is 157 tooth, the other 164. These have to be used together. If you use a 164 tooth flywheel, use a 164 tooth bellhousing/block plate. If you use a 157 tooth flywheel (older 289's) use a 157 tooth bellhousing/block plate.

The 157 tooth flywheel has a smaller diameter than the 164... making starter placement different for each. If you are trying to use a 157 tooth flywheel in a 164 tooth bellhousing, the ring gear won't be out far enought for the starter to engage it. If you use a 164 tooth flywheel in a 157 tooth bellhousing (if it fits at all) the larger diameter ring gear will be out too far, and the starter probably won't even go in the hole.

As Alex mentioned, the manual and automatic starters are different. You CANNOT use an automatic starter. The flywheel will hit on the nose.

I went through this switch back in high school when I first bought the mustang... oh , round the mid 80's. I bought the complete conversion kit (including tranny) for $125 at the junkyard. It came out of a torino, so the shifter was a bit far forward, but little things like that don't deter a teenager bent on bangin' gears.

I also learned what happens when you don't use a pilot bushing... (pilot bushing... what's that?) The tranny whines like hell in every gear but 4th, then wears out really quick. Oops, back to the junkyard!

It's amazing a teenager can live through a stone stock 289 4V, 4-speed with a 3.55 rear and four wheel drum brakes that make the car head for the berm any time they're applied... Oh yea, headers and dual 1 7/8" pipe and glasspacks. I used to think it sounded GREAT! That same sound would make me cringe nowadays. I drilled those little tailpipes for sparkplugs... hooked up a coil to them, then hooked up a button to ground the ignition. You hit the button and the ignition would cut out and the sparkplugs in the tailpipes would ignite... resulting in 3-4ft flames out the back of the car.

Oh, the memories.....

Good Luck!

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Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

[This message has been edited by n2oMike (edited 02-12-2002).]

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 18575
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-12-2002 03:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just love flames!

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Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
US Class Nationals link

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 30756
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 02-12-2002 03:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yup, combine flaming tailpipes and fuel sloshing out of the gas cap that sometimes happens to fast leaving Mustangs and you have a hot ole time!

------------------

'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC

MCA Member # 47773

Recycle --- Restore a Classic Mustang!

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SundanceKid
Gearhead

Posts: 853
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 02-12-2002 03:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SundanceKid   Click Here to Email SundanceKid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What H8Chevy has left out that may be of help, is the starter teeth do not engage the flywheel teath AT ALL, I would guess he has a 157 flywheel...he assures me that the block plate is correct and from the manual trans. I know squat about fords so?
When I was the parts manager at PepBoys I would find that ford starters where 9 outa 10 times wrong!

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H8CHEVY
Gearhead

Posts: 258
From: Southern Cali
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 02-12-2002 06:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for H8CHEVY   Click Here to Email H8CHEVY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sundance is right, I checked the flywheel and it is 157 teeth. judging bye the amount of grime inside the bellhousing before i cleaned it im pretty positive its the right bellhousing. Ive tried to of the autolite 3132 and 1 3124........ so about the weight on it alex, yes there are two weights that are pressed onto the flywheel, they are on the back side that faces the clutch if I remember correctly.. is that a 5.0 flywheel?? the part of the starter that doesnt fit is not the depth of the cone when you stick it in, its the width of the cone that sticks thru the block plate... thanks.

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 18575
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-12-2002 06:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sounds like you are in need of a 164 tooth flywheel my friend.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
US Class Nationals link

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1363
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 02-12-2002 07:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What type of clutch is on the flywheel?

If it's a diaphragm, you've got a late model flywheel. If it's a 3-finger (long) you've got the early model wheel. The two styles have different bolt patterns, so this hold 100%.

Does the flywheel look too small? Does it look like the starter gear has no way of touching the flywheel? If so, Alex is right. You've got a 164 tooth bellhousing and a 157 tooth flywheel.

If it looks like it should mesh up correctly, you've got the wrong starter. Compare them at the parts store. They are easily distinguishable when looking at the nose.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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SundanceKid
Gearhead

Posts: 853
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 02-12-2002 07:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SundanceKid   Click Here to Email SundanceKid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Steve, ya better go talk to that guy you bought it from, or the machine shop and make sure they didn't do the switch-aroo.

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SundanceKid
Gearhead

Posts: 853
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 02-12-2002 07:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SundanceKid   Click Here to Email SundanceKid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
He has a Centerforce on it now. I while back he took it to a machine shop with locating pins installed in the flywheel, when he got the machined flywheel back it no longer had the pins and the shop refused to replace them their aguement was that year didn't come with pins! Steve did the flywheel look the same when you got it back?

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SundanceKid
Gearhead

Posts: 853
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 02-13-2002 02:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SundanceKid   Click Here to Email SundanceKid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
He got it to work, Alex it was a late model flywheel. He tried a 5.0 starter and it worked perfect. He has a 70 302 is that flywheel gonna work? I thought they switched to a 50 oz.?

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Rory McNeil
Gearhead

Posts: 1071
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 02-13-2002 02:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rory McNeil   Click Here to Email Rory McNeil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Back around 77, I converted my 70 Mustang FB 351C 4v, FMX auto, over to a toploader 4 speed. I got the trans,bellhousing, pedals, linkage,flywheel,& all the other bits (cost $175.00, ah the good old days), & came out of a 70 Mach1.After I swapped everything over, I tried installing my original auto starter, only to find that it was about 3/8"`s from fitting all the way into the bellhousing.Since it was a weekend, I stuck a couple of flat washers between the starter & the block plate. The starter worked, but soon after the aluminum nose broke, & I had to buy a new starter. The stick starter had a shorter "snout",& installing the right starter solved that problem. It DIDN`T prevent me from getting a mess of tickets & losing my drivers license for 4 months, due to my new found love of burning rubber & power shifting, but, thats a whole nother story! Ahhh, the joys of youth!!!!

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78 Fairmont 428 4 speed [email protected]
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed [email protected]
85 Mustang NHRA Stocker under construction, 302 5 speed

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mvierow
Gearhead

Posts: 152
From: Bay Area, Ca
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 02-13-2002 02:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mvierow   Click Here to Email mvierow     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
He's going to run into problems unless he uses the late model harmonic balancer along with that flywheel. It would probably be easier since your already back there to just replace the flywheel with the 28.2 early flywheel or whatever the counter-weight is. The guide pins probably are not all that necessary since there are a lot of bolts holding the clutch to the flywheel, but if you replace something, this make the choice of which part even easier.

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1363
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 02-13-2002 08:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Using the late model 50oz balancer will only throw the balance off even further. If it's a pre-82 block, the only real option is replacing the flywheel with an early unit. Sounds like you need the early 157 tooth 28 ounce unit.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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H8CHEVY
Gearhead

Posts: 258
From: Southern Cali
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 02-13-2002 10:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for H8CHEVY   Click Here to Email H8CHEVY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok guys got a starter that fits and works.. but its application is for a 85 5.0 stang, autolite 3524A. Now here is my question is it true that the flywheel will have a casting number starting with C3AZ if it is the original flywheel is this true?? and it is definitly a 157 tooth flywheel...

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1363
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 02-13-2002 10:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A C3 part number is definitely for the older unit. The newer part would start with an E or even an F.

60's C
70's D
80's E
90's F

C3 is 1963

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Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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H8CHEVY
Gearhead

Posts: 258
From: Southern Cali
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 02-13-2002 10:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for H8CHEVY   Click Here to Email H8CHEVY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
thanks mike.. so as long as there is a "C" i should be good... lets pray!

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