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Author Topic:   Piston Flycuts??
67fastback2+2
Journeyman

Posts: 30
From: Pennsville,New Jersey
Registered: Oct 2001

posted 02-03-2002 10:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 67fastback2+2   Click Here to Email 67fastback2+2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have 8-Clevite 224-2108.060 / 9-1177.060 Pistons for my 67 289 . Being new at this and trying to learn could someone tell me why every piston is cut differently at the top and one even looks like a different material. This may be the norm but I don't want to be getting
taken advantaged of either
IDGI Pete

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 20031
From: Saco, Maine USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-04-2002 08:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Were these new?

------------------

'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC

MCA Member # 47773

Of all the things I've lost, my mind is what I miss the most.

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67fastback2+2
Journeyman

Posts: 30
From: Pennsville,New Jersey
Registered: Oct 2001

posted 02-04-2002 10:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 67fastback2+2   Click Here to Email 67fastback2+2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes Steve, They were ordered thru NAPA Auto parts on the advice of the machinist. He said these would raise my compression but I could still run Premium gas

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 20031
From: Saco, Maine USA
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posted 02-04-2002 11:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
They should all look identical, and made of the same material. This is out of the box, meaning nobody has flycut them yet?

What does your machinist say? He's the best one to ask since he can take a close look at them.

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'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC

MCA Member # 47773

Of all the things I've lost, my mind is what I miss the most.

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67fastback2+2
Journeyman

Posts: 30
From: Pennsville,New Jersey
Registered: Oct 2001

posted 02-04-2002 07:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 67fastback2+2   Click Here to Email 67fastback2+2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My shop man says that they were shipped from all over as they are a special size(.060) and were made at different plants but to the same specs. He assured me that even though the 1/2 moon cuts appear different all is well. Does this sound about right.Or is it possible I'm being paranoid.

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 20031
From: Saco, Maine USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-04-2002 08:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, it's not optimal, but it should work.

Are you having the engine balanced?

------------------

'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC

MCA Member # 47773

Mechanic's creedo: If it jams, force it. If it breaks, it needed replacing anyway.

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 20031
From: Saco, Maine USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-04-2002 08:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just how much do they differ? Can you post a pic?

What kind of engine are you building? Stock, warmed over, Street/strip, drag?

------------------

'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC

MCA Member # 47773

Mechanic's creedo: If it jams, force it. If it breaks, it needed replacing anyway.

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Boss302
Journeyman

Posts: 8
From:
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 02-04-2002 08:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Boss302   Click Here to Email Boss302     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i'm no genious, but i think that one should be exactly the same as another

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67fastback2+2
Journeyman

Posts: 30
From: Pennsville,New Jersey
Registered: Oct 2001

posted 02-04-2002 09:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 67fastback2+2   Click Here to Email 67fastback2+2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was sticking to the plans Alex had posted, 270 H cam, roller rockers, SS tapered valves, bored.060 over, except for the pistons. I will put up pics tomarrow. I will not be racing it but must have the power and lope like when we were younger. Guess it's something to do with turning 40..

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richard bohm
Gearhead

Posts: 260
From:
Registered: May 2001

posted 02-04-2002 11:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for richard bohm   Click Here to Email richard bohm     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
have the rotating assembly balanced. this will prevent any problems from the pistons being different wieghts. when you assemble the motor check the valve to piston clearance on each cylinder. this will prevent problems of differing valve notches. it will take longer this way but in the end you will prevent having to rebuild the motor again.

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 561
From: Stanton, Michigan
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 02-05-2002 06:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Guys:
If Pete has the rotating assembly dynamically balanced it will "correct" for any weight differences that may exist between the different looking pistons; but if the tops are cut differently, won't these combustion chamber volume differences make for different compression ratios in each cylinder - causing an imbalance of power production?

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67fastback2+2
Journeyman

Posts: 30
From: Pennsville,New Jersey
Registered: Oct 2001

posted 02-05-2002 09:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 67fastback2+2   Click Here to Email 67fastback2+2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Fellas, I wasn't able to get pics today. I did E-mail Dr. Dipstick( help line @ Clevite Pistons) but no answer yet. All the cuts on top of each piston are different.. I don't know what is mean't by balancing? Is thier a way of finding out the volume to see if each might come out the same?? I don't want to have done all this work and then find out things are not right.
Thanks for all this help!

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SundanceKid
Gearhead

Posts: 480
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 02-06-2002 01:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SundanceKid   Click Here to Email SundanceKid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
IMHO The pistons better look the same, better be within .5 oz. of each other 1 oz. max! If they were made by differant manufacturers they can (will) not be matched. I'd like to see that pic when you get it. Seems fishy to me. Did the machinist Fly cut them? Or did they come from the four corners of the earth that way? At the very least I'd have the pistons matched.

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SteveLaRiviere
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From: Saco, Maine USA
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posted 02-06-2002 02:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That's why I asked if this was going to be a high performance application. A little difference in the notches is no big deal in a stock rebuild, but it's a big deal in a high performance application. {when I worked as a tech, I did a lot of engine work and you should have seen what I got for replacement pistons. Many times they weren't even close to what the engine had in it, and GM did not pay to have all pistons replaced, just the failed one[s].

67fastback2+2, in balancing an engine the reciprocating {pistons and connecting rods} parts are made to all weigh the same, and the bobweights on the crankshaft are ground or heavymetal {mallory metal} is added to match the weight of the reciprocating parts. This reduces vibrations which helps produce more power and is easier on parts. Every engine should be balanced when rebuilt, in my opinion. It's a good investment.

------------------

'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC

MCA Member # 47773

Mechanic's creedo: If it jams, force it. If it breaks, it needed replacing anyway.

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 20031
From: Saco, Maine USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-06-2002 02:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 67fastback2+2:
Is there a way of finding out the volume to see if each might come out the same??

Yes, it's called CCing the piston tops. For domed pistons, you lay out some Play-Doh and make impressions with the piston tops and use a buret to see how much liquid is needed to fill them. Dish pistons can be checked without Play-Doh.

If you can get some pics, we'll really be able to tell you what we think.

------------------

'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC

MCA Member # 47773

Mechanic's creedo: If it jams, force it. If it breaks, it needed replacing anyway.

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 561
From: Stanton, Michigan
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 02-06-2002 06:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
#1) If the "acceptable" weight difference between pistons can range from 0.5 to 1.0 ounces in a street engine buildup, what is the "acceptable" range for a Street/Strip engine seeing 7K+ rpms?

#2) When looking at different shaped/sized piston valve reliefs, what is an acceptable range of volume [cubic centimeters (cc)] differences in combustion chamber volumes between each cylinder in a street engine - or a race engine?

Still learning,,,, Ryan

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SundanceKid
Gearhead

Posts: 480
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 02-06-2002 08:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SundanceKid   Click Here to Email SundanceKid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ryan, It's all a matter of what you feel is criticle. I usualy lie on the anal retentive side myself so I want everything to be matched within .5oz or better street or strip...either way it will last longer and balancing even adds horse power by using less energy to shake the engine and more to turn it. If you realy want to get picky about things you can go through the pistons and cc them and cc and smooth the combustion chambers to be exactly the same, don't forget to index those plugs! To me a street car is not worth the time. And even a strip car isn't unless thats how you get paid!

In NASCAR they buy 1000 restrictor plates and flow bench every single one. They select 50 of the best ones and LOCK them up for the season in a sealed container if they visualy see even the tinyest scratch they chuck it....oh and heaven forbid a fingerprint! Were talking coton gloves.
It's all a balance of performance longevity and economy.
My toyota truck I just bought had all the sparkplug threads striped, ALL of them! I re-threaded them and coiled them but one didn't seat right so now I have more volume in that cylinder then the others and the emissions shows it. With a tiny bit more NOX emissions then before. Do I care? Nah,It runs fine.

An engine will run fine with differant pistons, not exactly ideal, but it will run and probably give years of service.

In this case, if they are made by differant manufacturers and aren't matched you would be IMHO stupid to not have each idividual piston balanced.
Just look at Mopar they have been useing whole engine balancing (dynamic)for years.
Ever seen an original non-shaky 360 before?

[This message has been edited by SundanceKid (edited 02-06-2002).]

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67fastback2+2
Journeyman

Posts: 30
From: Pennsville,New Jersey
Registered: Oct 2001

posted 02-07-2002 09:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 67fastback2+2   Click Here to Email 67fastback2+2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Guys,
Just got word back from the Clevite Tech.expert Dr. Dipstick :
Subject:
Re: Doc Page
Date:
Thu, 7 Feb 2002 17:29:20 -0800
From:
[email protected]
To:
[email protected]


Dear Pete,

You should return those pistons to the purchase point and get a set that
appear the same.

Dr. Dipstick



om> To:
cc:
02/05/2002 Subject: Doc Page
07:30 AM

Thanks for all your help!!

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SundanceKid
Gearhead

Posts: 480
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 02-07-2002 11:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SundanceKid   Click Here to Email SundanceKid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Usualy, I question anyones advice if their surname is Dipstick, but in this case I would agree.

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SundanceKid
Gearhead

Posts: 480
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 02-07-2002 11:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SundanceKid   Click Here to Email SundanceKid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh, that's reguardless of if they have a doctorate or not. Dr. Dipstick LOL

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SundanceKid
Gearhead

Posts: 480
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 02-07-2002 11:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SundanceKid   Click Here to Email SundanceKid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Who did he study under Prof. Nimrod? or Ima DumbA$$ M.D. RLMAO...Sorry LOL...It hurts...LOL

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 10487
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-08-2002 12:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
They were apparently from different production batches.

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Alex Denysenko
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AKBOSSMAN
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From: WASILLA , AK USA M&M #743 MCA #40857
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posted 02-11-2002 08:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AKBOSSMAN   Click Here to Email AKBOSSMAN     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Why bother til its right ? Takem back way back

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WAYNE CURTIS

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