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  Thinking out loud... 351C + FI

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Author Topic:   Thinking out loud... 351C + FI
SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 33988
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 01-15-2002 04:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My bowtie buddy tells me I need to get with the times and abandon carburetors and set up my Mustangs with fuel injection.

It sounds like a good idea. I like the idea of being able to map fuel and timing curves. I'd even consider putting on a pair of aftermarket catalytic convertors and having a clean running pair of ponies.

One thing I've noticed is my '94 runs so clean you barely smell the exhaust. The Mach 1 gasses the place out for 20 minutes.

The con to the idea of fuel injection is the initial cost and the technical set up. I like the way I can toss on a carb and have it running perfect in ten minutes.

FI for my Cleveland would involve a $750 Probe Spyder intake kit, and wiring in a 5.0 harness and ECM. Not too complicated, but expensive.

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'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC

"Speed costs money. How fast do you want to spend?"

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JAAZZY
Gearhead

Posts: 745
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 01-15-2002 05:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JAAZZY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Steve,

I can only share my experience but I loved the change. I have what many would consider an outdated FI system, the first Holley 4BBL but having run carbs before I can confidently say that I enjoy the car much more with FI. My biggest complaint has been the lack of tuneability with my system but that wouldn't be an issue for you.

I sometimes hear the complaint that the new ones are on the opposite side of the spectrum and too difficult to tune. They have so many variables and they interact with one another so it might take awhile to get it dialed. I'm not sure but you might get a base fuel map with the system. That should be a big help. I'm looking forward to going this route as finances allow.

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 33988
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 01-15-2002 05:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Did you use the ProJection {sp?} unit?

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'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC

"Speed costs money. How fast do you want to spend?"

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JAAZZY
Gearhead

Posts: 745
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 01-15-2002 06:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JAAZZY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yup, but I have the original one from when it first came out. It works fine but I think it would be better for a larger cubic inch motor. Mine is slightly fat in the midrange and it can't be adjusted any further down. I'm guessing it would be great for a 377-408ci motor up to about 550hp. The new ones are more adjustable.

quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
Did you use the ProJection {sp?} unit?


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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 33988
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 01-15-2002 06:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That unit reminds me of the GM throttle bodies.

------------------

'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC

"Speed costs money. How fast do you want to spend?"

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JAAZZY
Gearhead

Posts: 745
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 01-15-2002 07:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JAAZZY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Probably the basis for the design. Probably figured why re-engineer something that has already been done. It was about the only non custom thing available at the time. The newer systems are still over twice the cost.

quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
That unit reminds me of the GM throttle bodies.


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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 33988
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 01-15-2002 07:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When I worked as a GM tech, the TBI systems worked really well. They are amazingly simple.

But I'd like a multi port system.

I looked at the current Holley systems. $3k is ridiculous.

------------------

'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC

"Speed costs money. How fast do you want to spend?"

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JAAZZY
Gearhead

Posts: 745
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 01-15-2002 07:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JAAZZY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That is a lot of money but it seems the norm. I don't know how much the Edelbrock system is going to be but other options seem to be in the same range. Isn't just the Speedpro or Accell DFI computer and harness $2K?! The necessary harware like the Spyder and the fuel system will easily add over $1K more. Nothing cheap out there except for a donor 5.0 liter but that's probably not any better for performance than what I have now.

quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
When I worked as a GM tech, the TBI systems worked really well. They are amazingly simple.

But I'd like a multi port system.

I looked at the current Holley systems. $3k is ridiculous.


[This message has been edited by JAAZZY (edited 01-15-2002).]

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 33988
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 01-15-2002 07:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, if the Spyder is $750, and I find a junkyard ECM and harness, it may not be too bad. I bet you could set the whole thing up for under $1500.

But that's still a lot of money.

------------------

'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC

"Speed costs money. How fast do you want to spend?"

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67coupe
Gearhead

Posts: 405
From: dallas NC usa
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 01-15-2002 10:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 67coupe   Click Here to Email 67coupe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
dont spend all that money on an intake get ur single plane or a single planeintake drilled for injectors bout any shop that can weld allumin can do it and they make an elbow to bolt 5.0 tbodys to the 4bbl pattern iv been seriously looking into doing mine that way but i ve got access to the equipment to do it myself

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Josh
67 coupe with 351c
94 Explorer
30 model A currently rustbucket
in process 67 convt with efi 5.0 and t5

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MrWesson22
Gearhead

Posts: 1209
From: Dacula, GA
Registered: Sep 2000

posted 01-16-2002 12:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MrWesson22   Click Here to Email MrWesson22     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Does anyone know anything about that Barry Grant VFI (venturi fuel injection) system? It just bolts on in place of the carb and comes with all wiring, computer, everything. It's running $2K from jegs and looks like an easy install. It looks good to me, but I know little about it - still uses a carbed fuel system ~7psi. One advantage I see would be still being able to use holley v8 nitrous systems.

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Neal
Member #723
[email protected] AIM: MrWesson22

69 Gulfstream Aqua Grande
351C/Toploader 4sp

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I65Stang
Gearhead

Posts: 5950
From: Antelope, CA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-16-2002 01:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for I65Stang   Click Here to Email I65Stang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hmm, where is Dan Jones right about now? I seem to remember him talking a while back about some Pantera buddies of his with EFI 351C's.

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Tim

M&M Member #35
1965 Mustang coupe, 200 I6, Holley 2300, Clifford header, true duals w/ 26" Smithys
1988 Mustang GT AOD vert, 15.810 @ 88.871 mph 100% stock w/ no traction
1976 Silverline Comoro 18' trihull ski boat, 188 hp 302 I/O, another toy
http://all.at/mustang
https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/I65Stang.html

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SundanceKid
Gearhead

Posts: 1033
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 01-16-2002 02:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SundanceKid   Click Here to Email SundanceKid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm not trying to talk you out of EFI, I have like my EFI cars better then my carbed ones. EFI is much nicer on those cold mornings. I thought I could suggest a differant route to the same ends. Why not buy some O2 sensors and a Air/Fuel meter and tune the Carb that way? I use this set up to tune my cars (EFI and Carbed). You can dial it in much closer then by just looking at the plugs and buy the seat of your pants. I have a single meter that I make a harness to fit all the cars I have O2's on. Idle right on, part throttle right on, and WOT right on. No guessing. Then once the A/F is on the money install the cats to scrub the extra grit off the twice pipes.
Besides I kinda like to tinker with my carbed car. EFI you close the hood and forget it. No fun LOL

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Larry Jennings
Gearhead

Posts: 540
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 01-16-2002 04:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Larry Jennings   Click Here to Email Larry Jennings     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We're not done with the car yet, but I'll have good info on the latest Holley system fairly soon. I used the Coast Spyder intake with the billit throttle body, and looking at it, the TB is a 4 hole chunk of aluminum with a couple of vacuum ports and a TPS (throttle position switch) on it. A carb could be used without fuel or boosters (and would flow pretty good air) if a TPS could be hooked up on it. Of course if I did a system that way I'd run fake fuel lines to make people think it was both

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90 percent's for sissys! Don Garlits

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Scott (69Mach)
Gearhead

Posts: 502
From: Walnut Creek, CA USA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-16-2002 04:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott (69Mach)   Click Here to Email Scott (69Mach)     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Pantera stuff can be found at:

http://realbig.com/pipermail/detomaso/

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DidgeyTrucker
Gearhead

Posts: 1060
From: Greenbrier, TN USA
Registered: Oct 99

posted 01-16-2002 04:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DidgeyTrucker   Click Here to Email DidgeyTrucker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SundanceKid:
Why not buy some O2 sensors and a Air/Fuel meter and tune the Carb that way? I use this set up to tune my cars (EFI and Carbed). You can dial it in much closer then by just looking at the plugs and by the seat of your pants. I have a single meter that I make a harness to fit all the cars I have O2's on.

Now that is interesting. What kind of meter do you hook up the sensors too? what kind of signal do you you read? How do you read it?

Tracy

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 33988
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 01-16-2002 04:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tracy, you get get air/fuel gauges everywhere. Check out Summit.

Sundance, being able to tune the carb is no problem. What's cool about FI is that it is constantly stoichiometrically tuning the engine many times per second. You can't beat that with a stick!

------------------

'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC

"Speed costs money. How fast do you want to spend?"

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71boss
Journeyman

Posts: 16
From: Virginia Beach, Virginia
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 01-16-2002 07:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 71boss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://www.detomaso.nu/~thomast/efi/
Try this link

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SundanceKid
Gearhead

Posts: 1033
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 01-17-2002 12:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SundanceKid   Click Here to Email SundanceKid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, it's like they say a carb is a controlled vacuum leak. EFI is a air fuel management system....welcome to the new age.

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