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Author Topic:   351m/400m
stretracer19
Journeyman

Posts: 47
From: bowling green kentucky
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 12-13-2001 01:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for stretracer19   Click Here to Email stretracer19     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
can any one tell me about building a 400m i was planing on boring the block .30 over 2v heads flat top pistons a comp cams 292h magnum cam and a x-celertor intake would this be a good combination of parts or would something else work better

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Rustang
Gearhead

Posts: 504
From: Clarion PA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 12-13-2001 05:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rustang   Click Here to Email Rustang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've always wanted to put together one! Everyone calls the 400 a boat anchor but I've seen some with mild mods similar to yours that really turn on.
The combination sounds good, although I'm not familiar with the x-celerator manifold. There are companies out there that make adapter plates for putting cleveland manifolds on the 400.

A true flat-top will yield about 10:1 compression with the stock heads. The stock piston is somewhere around 8.5:1. 351C flat tops will work, but you'll have to find a machine shop that will bush the rods, since the 400 rod has a larger pin dia. What kind of car/truck would you be putting this in?

------------------
http://www.rustang-racing.cityslide.com/contents/contents.cfm/712231
'68
mustang 351 clevor- [email protected]
'67 Stang, 351W [email protected]
'69 351C [email protected]
'78 Pickup [email protected]
'79 Pickup 460 ET=??

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stretracer19
Journeyman

Posts: 47
From: bowling green kentucky
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 12-13-2001 04:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stretracer19   Click Here to Email stretracer19     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm planing on putting in either a fox body or sn95 mustang the thought about a high rise intake but wasn't sure about hood clearance I'm also planing on 3:73 or 4:10 gears in the back the cars being pretty much being setup for racing first and driveablity second

[This message has been edited by stretracer19 (edited 12-13-2001).]

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19751
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 12-13-2001 06:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Welcome to M&M Strtracr. .
Better get some pontoons for that SN-95 or Fox if you plan on using a 351M/400.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00 & '01
Fleet of FoMoCo products
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4736
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 12-13-2001 06:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Put a 460 in it. Parts are easier to find, and it will make more low end torque for a lot less money. Plus, try and find a set of headers to fit that. At least with the 460 you can buy swap headers for that combo.

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1590
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 12-13-2001 10:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Go here... TONS of information pertaining to exactly what you need to know.

http://www.projectbronco.com/

Have Fun!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

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stretracer19
Journeyman

Posts: 47
From: bowling green kentucky
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 12-13-2001 10:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stretracer19   Click Here to Email stretracer19     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
holcomb motorsports sales an engine swap kit or separate components such as headers etc. and this engine should make just as much low end torque as a 460 plus i won't have to go out and find one it's basically the same a a 351 Cleveland but it makes more low end torque and don't rev as high which is fine sense it will mostly be driven and raced on the street

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Rustang
Gearhead

Posts: 504
From: Clarion PA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 12-13-2001 10:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rustang   Click Here to Email Rustang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That's why I was wondering what kind of car this was going in. If it was a vehicle that originally had this motor, like a later Torino or F150, spending money on this motor would make sense. You'll probably have to have headers made for the swap to a late Mustang (expensive).
But if you're bent on going for it, and you're planning on racing, put a set of closed chambered 4V heads on it, .550 to .600 lift solid cam and that sucker should fly!

------------------
http://www.rustang-racing.cityslide.com/contents/contents.cfm/712231
'68
mustang 351 clevor- [email protected]
'67 Stang, 351W [email protected]
'69 351C [email protected]
'78 Pickup [email protected]
'79 Pickup 460 ET=??

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stretracer19
Journeyman

Posts: 47
From: bowling green kentucky
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 12-13-2001 10:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stretracer19   Click Here to Email stretracer19     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
this is also to show a lot of people from around here with there 5.0 and supercharged 4.6's and others that i talked to that's bad mouthed this engine that's it's not be taken as lightly as they have been like i said raceability first drivability second

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Fastback68
Gearhead

Posts: 1746
From: Sucat, Paranaque, Philippines
Registered: Jul 99

posted 12-13-2001 10:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastback68   Click Here to Email Fastback68     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just my 2 cents' worth. I had a 400M once, and did a load of research. It turned out that there was a large batch of 400M's produced in, I think, '75 or '76 that were extremely prone to cracking. Anyway, my block was in that batch so I dumped it. You might want to redo my research to make sure you haven't got one of these dud blocks.

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stretracer19
Journeyman

Posts: 47
From: bowling green kentucky
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 12-13-2001 11:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stretracer19   Click Here to Email stretracer19     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i found that out to mine came out of a 78 or 79 ltd wagon and was heavily smoged like most all of these engines but all that has sense been gotten ride of

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4736
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 12-14-2001 06:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Low end torque on the street is useless. Street tires wont handle it. You are better off to build a motor that doesnt make any low end torque but a makes alot of horsepower up in the rpm range.
As for making as much torque as a 460, yeah, maybe a stock 460, but add a small cam, headers and a good intake and it will run circles around that 400.

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SnakeEyes
Gearhead

Posts: 108
From: On a rock in the middle of the pacific *Hawaii*
Registered: Aug 2001

posted 12-14-2001 09:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SnakeEyes   Click Here to Email SnakeEyes     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There also is a stroker crank too. 434 cubic inch. How much power are you looking for? The ford 400 is really over look but has allot of potential it just takes a little more work. A 351C and a 400 are almost alike which means allot of parts from a 351C can be adapted to a 400. Even pop up pistons with the right machine work. This might sound weird but I love the ford 400 I wanted to build one up also but the lack of a machine shop in my state that could do the work and my desire to have more cubic inches made me go for a 385 series big block. Some day when I have more money and time to spare I am going to build up a 400 race motor. hot rod magazine also did a budget *cheap* build up of the 400 with some impressive results got questions or if you would like me to scan the article for you email me.

------------------
Success comes to those who hustle wisely.

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stretracer19
Journeyman

Posts: 47
From: bowling green kentucky
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 12-14-2001 07:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stretracer19   Click Here to Email stretracer19     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[QUOTE As for making as much torque as a 460, yeah, maybe a stock 460, but add a small cam, headers and a good intake and it will run circles around that 400.[/B][/QUOTE]

it might not make as much torque as a 460 but it's not far behind either lets say for instance according to chiltons in 78 when my engine was produced a 2 barrel 400 made 160 HP while making 314 ft lb. of torque compared to the 460 with a 4 barrel making 202 HP and making 348 ft lb. of torque which in my mind makes the 400 a torquier engine

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4736
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 12-14-2001 08:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by stretracer19:
it might not make as much torque as a 460 but it's not far behind either lets say for instance according to chiltons in 78 when my engine was produced a 2 barrel 400 made 160 HP while making 314 ft lb. of torque compared to the 460 with a 4 barrel making 202 HP and making 348 ft lb. of torque which in my mind makes the 400 a torquier engine

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Jimmy Ray
Journeyman

Posts: 84
From: Virginia Beach Va.
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 12-15-2001 01:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jimmy Ray   Click Here to Email Jimmy Ray     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm trying to remember...... If I think back far enough.... Even though the 351C and 400 are of the same family, (except for the heads) the rest of the major assembies, ie. the crank rods pistons will not work, because of the taller block hieght the rods are longer, (this is where I get a little fussy), the pistons won't inter change because of the offset for the taller rod.... So trying to use a 351C Piston with higher compression than the 400's 8 to 1, Isn't going to happen.... You can't use the 400 crank to stroke 351C because of the difference of main rod jounials dia.
Yep with money and the will you can make 400 run but a 429 or a 460 is cheaper, and parts much much easier to get....
If ford would have used their head the 400 could have been something. BUT the engneers over engneered it and now your left holding a boat anchor....
Sorry....

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stretracer19
Journeyman

Posts: 47
From: bowling green kentucky
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 12-15-2001 02:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for stretracer19   Click Here to Email stretracer19     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
actually you can interchange the heads intake with an adapter cam pistons with a little machining and a few more small things and from what I've for in summit jegs etc. the prices aren't really that bad

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SnakeEyes
Gearhead

Posts: 108
From: On a rock in the middle of the pacific *Hawaii*
Registered: Aug 2001

posted 12-15-2001 08:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SnakeEyes   Click Here to Email SnakeEyes     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Same bore and same piston compression high. 351C flat tops will work and 351 pop-up slugs WITH 351C quench heads will work. Just takes some machine work 351C cams also fit.
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy Ray:
I'm trying to remember...... If I think back far enough.... Even though the 351C and 400 are of the same family, (except for the heads) the rest of the major assembies, ie. the crank rods pistons will not work, because of the taller block hieght the rods are longer, (this is where I get a little fussy), the pistons won't inter change because of the offset for the taller rod.... So trying to use a 351C Piston with higher compression than the 400's 8 to 1, Isn't going to happen.... You can't use the 400 crank to stroke 351C because of the difference of main rod jounials dia.
Yep with money and the will you can make 400 run but a 429 or a 460 is cheaper, and parts much much easier to get....
If ford would have used their head the 400 could have been something. BUT the engneers over engneered it and now your left holding a boat anchor....
Sorry....

------------------
Success comes to those who hustle wisely.

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1590
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 12-15-2001 08:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
351C pistons will work in a 400 if the small end of the rod is bushed down to a 351C size pin.

Yep, the pistons are the same, except the 400 uses a larger piston pin.

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

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Rustang
Gearhead

Posts: 504
From: Clarion PA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 12-15-2001 08:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rustang   Click Here to Email Rustang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Has anybody ever witnessed any 400M's in action? I'm curious if anyone's actually seen one of these dinosaurs perform? I know of a guy here in town that has a F150 that'll spin his 40" ground hawgs just by mashing the gas from a roll. (pretty cool!) I'll try to find out details, but the guy that does my machine work built a 400M in a Maverick that's gone 9.20's (yes, that's the quarter, not eighth!). I've heard stories of a competitive local dirt modified from the early 80's winning against the big block chevies, and I know Jack Roush used to mess around with the 400's. (I've seen a couple of Roush prepped 400 blocks at swap meets-with 4 bolt mains and small block bellhousing pattern.)
On paper, I maintain that the 400M will hold its own, and I think it's cool to build something different, but could be a nightmare if this is a "first project"!

------------------
'68 mustang 351 clevor- [email protected]
'67 Stang, 351W [email protected]
'69 351C [email protected]
'78 Pickup [email protected]
'79 Pickup 460 ET=??
http://www.rustang-racing.cityslide.com/contents/contents.cfm/712231

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SnakeEyes
Gearhead

Posts: 108
From: On a rock in the middle of the pacific *Hawaii*
Registered: Aug 2001

posted 12-15-2001 10:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SnakeEyes   Click Here to Email SnakeEyes     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Would love to see one in action. I agree its not as easy as it seams theres even more to do if using pistons from a 351C would have to check my papers for more about this.

Any how I think you should follow the 400 build up that hot rod magazine did. You would make a little more power using your headers and a 4 barrel carb. They used factory exhaust manifolds and a 2 barrel carb. They made 468 LB-ft, and 380 HP

------------------
Success comes to those who hustle wisely.

[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 12-15-2001).]

[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 12-15-2001).]

[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 12-15-2001).]

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1590
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 12-15-2001 10:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Flattop pistons seem to be available from a couple different sources listed at www.projectbronco.com add to this 4bbl 351C heads with the help of spacers from www.pricemotorsport.com and you've got the foundation for a real stormer.

The flattop pistons are from either Badger or Ohio Piston. If you want forged, you've either got to bush the rods for 351C pieces or go custom.

Do it all to one of the 73' FMX blocks with the small block bellhousing, and it could be fitted (with some work) in place of the 351C, and most folks wouldn't know the difference.

There used to be a guy on the fordnatics mailing list with a Pantera with a 400 topped by Weber carbs that pumped out close to 600hp with 4bbl 351C heads.

The torque curve was extremely flat as well. One helluva' engine!

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

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Rustang
Gearhead

Posts: 504
From: Clarion PA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 12-15-2001 01:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rustang   Click Here to Email Rustang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Low 12's with a 2 barrel

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Daniel Jones
Gearhead

Posts: 500
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99

posted 12-16-2001 04:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daniel Jones   Click Here to Email Daniel Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
>Has anybody ever witnessed any 400M's in action?

A minor point, it's 400. There's no need for the M, since Ford made no other
400's. The M is used for the 351M, to differentiate it from 351W's and 351C's.

> I've heard stories of a competitive local dirt modified from the early 80's winning
>against the big block chevies

A local (when I was living in Ohio) dirt track racer used to run them and liked them
a lot. He ran them with everything from cast iron 2V heads to aluminum C302B's.
In fact, I know where you can get a Roush single plane intake that was widened
to fit a 400 with C302B heads. He's also got a sheet metal intake for a 400 for sale
(IIRC, he was only asking $150).

>I know Jack Roush used to mess around with the 400's. (I've seen a couple of
>Roush prepped 400 blocks at swap meets-with 4 bolt mains and small block
>bellhousing pattern.)

Jack Roush's own Autokraft Cobra was powered by stroked 400 with SVO
high port aluminum Cleveland heads. An old Super Ford article ("The Cobra
that Jack built") gave the details. The article stated Jack wanted a torque
monster and a 460 would have been his choice but no aluminum heads for the
big block were available at the time. To keep the weight reasonable, he decided
to stroke a 400 and use Motorsport 351C aluminum high port heads. With a 0.030"
overbore and a custom Crower stroker crank, the displacement was 460 cubic
inches. The short block was topped off by a set of A3 aluminum high port heads
with matching A331 high port intake (using adater plates) and 780 Holley.
According to the article, the cam was surprisingly mild, a hydraulic Comp Cams
280 with 0.530" lift (the article mistakenly states 0.500" lift). Claimed output was
520 HP.

>There used to be a guy on the fordnatics mailing list with a Pantera with a 400 topped
>by Weber carbs that pumped out close to 600hp with 4bbl 351C heads. The torque
>curve was extremely flat as well. One helluva' engine!

That was William Mullen. I still have a copy of his post:

"Well, here's the info most of you have been waiting for....I took the Pantera
motor to Cobra Restorers, in Kennesaw, GA, after getting fed up w/not being
able to tune the carbs up properly, and then had it dynoed by my engine
builder, when he got up above 4000 rpms I left the room b/c I was afraid
what might happen. Here are the results:

RPM HP TQ
2000 158 415
2500 212 445
3000 274 480
3500 352 527
4000 431 566
4500 500 583
5000 543 571
5500 567 541
6000 577 505
6500 567 458

Here are the engine parts:
Ford 400 FMX block, bored .030", 4-bolt main
Stock rods/crank
Arias forged pistons
351C 4V heads, ported, 2.19/1.76 SS valves, 11:1 CR
Comp Pro Magnum 1.73 intake/1.8 exhaust roller rockers
Hall Pantera manifold
PME intake spacers
Weber 48 IDA's, 45mm chokes, Inglese needle/seats/circuits
Comp 32-771-8 Magnum roller cam
GTS Equal-length 2" headers"

He ended selling the Pantera. Something about needing money to go to
college so he could have a future. Some lame excuse like that :-) He's
building a V8 Fiero to take its place. Sigh.

>Do it all to one of the 73' FMX blocks with the small block bellhousing, and it could be
>fitted (with some work) in place of the 351C, and most folks wouldn't know the
>difference.

I've got one of those blocks. I'm keeping it in reserve, just in case, my planned
408C stroker isn't enough. By offset grinding the crank and using Ford 240 rods,
it's possible to get 430+ cubes out of the 400 and still have a good rod to stroke
ratio (240 rods are 6.79" long).

Dan Jones

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4736
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 12-16-2001 05:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Daniel Jones:
[B The article stated Jack wanted a torque
monster and a 460 would have been his choice but no aluminum heads for the
big block were available at the time.
[/B]


'nuff said.

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Rustang
Gearhead

Posts: 504
From: Clarion PA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 12-16-2001 06:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rustang   Click Here to Email Rustang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Those numbers from that Pantera build! Kid, not to belabor the point, but the 400M is about 150lbs lighter than the 460, and only about 25lbs heavier than the 351C.

------------------
'68 mustang 351 clevor- [email protected]
'67 Stang, 351W [email protected]
'69 351C [email protected]
'78 Pickup [email protected]
'79 Pickup 460 ET=??
http://www.rustang-racing.cityslide.com/contents/contents.cfm/712231

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