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  high volume oil pump requires larger pan?

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Author Topic:   high volume oil pump requires larger pan?
460-67Stang
Gearhead

Posts: 289
From: Southern Ohio, USA
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 10-25-2001 10:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 460-67Stang   Click Here to Email 460-67Stang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm considering a high volume oil pump for my 460. The guys at the local speed shop say I should use a larger pan. They say the higher volume pump will suck the stock pan dry.

Interesting. I've not heard this before. I did run a high volume pump in my 460 before with no problems. Any opinions?

Thsi is a street driven motor and I really don't want to go to a larger pan unless I must.
Thanks!
Brian

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clevelandstyle
Gearhead

Posts: 1335
From: central Indiana
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 10-25-2001 01:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for clevelandstyle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No, it will not suck your pan dry. I run a high volume pump in a cleveland and have had no problems reving to 6800rpm. One of my pans is a front sump and one is a rear sump. Both work with no problems.

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27870
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 10-25-2001 03:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You don't need to increase the oil capacity with a HV pump. Good sales pitch though

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00 & '01
Fleet of FoMoCo products
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sigtauenus
Gearhead

Posts: 3367
From: Va Beach
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 10-25-2001 03:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sigtauenus   Click Here to Email sigtauenus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
what do you get out of adding a HV pump? If the stock one give you good pressure, what does the extra volume do? Help with cooling?

Also, would you want to put one of those high pressure springs (like you can get from Motorsport) in a HV pump?

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 9592
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 10-25-2001 04:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sig,

One thing you get with a HV pump is increased wear on the distributor drive gear.

As far as pumping the pan dry, think about that... If it pumps more oil then more oil will be returning to the pan too. The oil passages can only hold so much.


SteveW

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Bob Hopkins
Gearhead

Posts: 362
From: BRIDGEPORT NJ USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 10-25-2001 04:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Hopkins   Click Here to Email Bob Hopkins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I disagree on wear or sucking pan dry my 75 F100 390" with 250,000 miles,I installed a HV pump at 100,000 miles. Still carries 60# at 65 and 20# at idle,never had a worry could not put a deap sump or T style pan on this truck because of crossmember.

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27870
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 10-25-2001 04:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A high volume pump will increase the supply of oil to the bearings, not the speed at which it arrives there. The rotor and housing are larger and hold a bit more oil so the chances of the engine RPM over coming the supply are substantially reduced.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00 & '01
Fleet of FoMoCo products
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link

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sigtauenus
Gearhead

Posts: 3367
From: Va Beach
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 10-25-2001 09:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sigtauenus   Click Here to Email sigtauenus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alex, what about putting in the high pressure spring in a high volume pump? Any advantage to that?

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460-67Stang
Gearhead

Posts: 289
From: Southern Ohio, USA
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 10-26-2001 09:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 460-67Stang   Click Here to Email 460-67Stang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the replys and info. Very much appreciated. You opinions substantiate my initial thoughts that you don't need a larger capacity pan.

My thouhgts on a couple statements made in this thread so far;

>What do you get out of adding a HV pump? If >the stock one give you good pressure, what >does the extra volume do? Help with cooling?

I'm running an oil cooler mounted in front of my radiator. I need the extra flow capacity of a high volume pump to ensure the oil moves well through the lines. And to get more oil to the bearings of course.

>Also, would you want to put one of those >high pressure springs (like you can get >from Motorsport) in a HV pump?

I'm looking to get a Melling HV pump which comes with a high pressure spring. Yes, I believe you'd want the high pressure spring othrwise the exces prossure the pump creates is simply bled out to the pan. You want to capture that pressure and use it to get oil to the bearings.....that's my understanding anyway.
Thanks for the info all!
Brian Bulow

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460-67Stang
Gearhead

Posts: 289
From: Southern Ohio, USA
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 10-26-2001 09:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 460-67Stang   Click Here to Email 460-67Stang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here's a good article from Melling about oil pressure and volume. Interesting reading.

http://www.melling.com/engoil.html

Brian

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2864
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 10-26-2001 09:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nice link, here's more...

http://www.melling.com/techbul1.html

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

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jkilroy
Gearhead

Posts: 1808
From: Vicksburg, MS
Registered: Dec 99

posted 10-26-2001 08:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jkilroy   Click Here to Email jkilroy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
460's have really large bearings, therefore high bearing surface speed. A HV pump is a really good idea.

------------------
Jay Kilroy
68' Fastback GT 390
"No such thing as a cam thats too big"

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2864
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 10-26-2001 08:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For drag racing, I -do- feel a lot more comfortable with an extra capacity pan... especially since my car has front sump pan and leaves fairly hard. On hard acceleration, good oil control and extra capacity are a nice insurance policy. Insufficient oil drainback speed is often brought up as a concern. Mine's an 8qt baffled pan that I run 7qts in.

You'll have a HARD time convincing a lot of those drag race FE guys with the oiling mods and HV/HP pumps and extra bearing clearance that they don't need the extra capacity.

Alex, what does your oiling system consist of?

Thanks!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

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460-67Stang
Gearhead

Posts: 289
From: Southern Ohio, USA
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 10-29-2001 09:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 460-67Stang   Click Here to Email 460-67Stang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not to beat this topic too much, but I came across the following at the Melling links listed above;

"That is what a high volume pump will do. Now let Is consider what it will not do.

1) It will not replace a rebuild in a worn-out engine. It may increase pressure but the engine is still worn-out.

2) It will not pump the oil pan dry. Both solid and hydraulic lifters have metering valves to limit flow of the oil to the top of the engine. If a pan is pumped dry, it is because the holes that drain oil back to the pan are plugged. If the high volume pump is also higher pressure, there will be a slight increase in flow to the top.

3) It will not wear out distributor gears. The load on the gear is directly related to the resistance to flow. Oil pressure is the measure of resistance to flow. The Ford 427 FE "side oiler" used a pump with relief valve set at 125 psi and it used a standard distributor gear. Distributor gear failures are usually caused by a worn gear on a new cam gear and/or worn bearings allowing misalignment.


Interesting, eh?

Oh yea, I ended up installing a Melling high volume pump this weekend using my stock pan. I hope to fire her up next weekned. Thanks for the tips gang!
Later,
Brian

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27870
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 10-29-2001 10:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The only time I use a high pressure spring in conjunction with a HV pump is with 351C's.
My oiling system consists of a stock Melling HV pump, billet shaft, and a highly baffeled Canton 7 quart front sump "T" pan. 7 quarts of Royal Purple #9 and a Motorcraft Fl-1HP filter. 9000 + RPM all day and no problems.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00 & '01
Fleet of FoMoCo products
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link

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sigtauenus
Gearhead

Posts: 3367
From: Va Beach
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 10-29-2001 02:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sigtauenus   Click Here to Email sigtauenus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alex or Steve, how about sending this one to the archives?

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