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Author
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Topic: ID heads setup for Solid lifters
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sprcoop
Gearhead Posts: 559
From: Tucson, AZ usa
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 10-12-2001 04:45 PM
   
I finally purchased a set of DOOE 351 Windsor heads for my final engine build. Supposedly they have 2000 miles on a new valve job, smog bumps removed and have 3/8" screw in studs suitable for solid lifters. I have no idea what I am looking at (they appear pretty clean so the 2000 miles I believe) but the screw in studs look just like the ones on a set of junker 289 heads I have in the garage. How can you tell for sure? Any help appreciated. Thanks.
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 46243
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 10-12-2001 05:39 PM
It will have guide plates to keep the pushrods aligned. Also, the studs will be screw-ins, so they'll have hexes at their bases.------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC Be American, Drive American!
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sprcoop
Gearhead Posts: 559
From: Tucson, AZ usa
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 10-12-2001 06:22 PM
Thanks Steve, I remember he said something about it not having guideplates but I also remember they are not expensive. I'll check for the hexes at the base when I get home. What makes them adjustable or different than the ones for hydraulic lifters? ------------------
Candy Apple Red
66' Coupe
Wide Ratio Toploader
2V 302 (icky!)
15" Styled Steel Wheels [This message has been edited by sprcoop (edited 10-12-2001).]
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 46243
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 10-12-2001 09:52 PM
First off, being threaded helps the studs resist being pulled out due to the forces of stronger spring pressure and high rpms. Secondly, the studs provide a way to bolt down the guide plates. Also, the threaded portion of the studs are longer providing a larger range of adjustability.The fact they are adjustable allows you to tune your valve lash more precisely, and allows you to use mechanical {solid lifter} camshafts. ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC Be American, Drive American!
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sprcoop
Gearhead Posts: 559
From: Tucson, AZ usa
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 10-16-2001 12:57 AM
Thanks Steve, I think I got shafted. These heads do not have the hex nut and look pressed in just like a stock set of 289 heads I have. The studs don't look any longer than the ones on the 289 heads either. I'm gonna have to talk to that boy. Thanks again.
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Rory McNeil
Gearhead Posts: 1720
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 10-16-2001 04:31 AM
It IS possible that you have the "cheapo" screw in studs that don`t have the hex on the bottom. To use the studs WITH the nut on the bottom, the top of the stud boss in the head needs to be machined down (.300" if I remember correctly) to make up for the thickness of the jamnut. You can also use a screw in stud WITHOUT the nut. With this stud, you don`t need to machine the stud boss, however to install them, you would either need a stud installing tool or double nut them. Also, you can`t use guide plates with these studs. To tell if they have the original non adjustable studs, take a close look at the studs.The early (68 & earlier) studs have a 3/8" thread for the adjuster nuts, & the studs are the same diameter all the way down. The later (69-early 78) studs have a small (5/16 I think) thread, & use a free running nut with a 1/2" hex head, compared to the "crimp" nut with a 9/16" hex.These studs have a step at the bottom of the threads. If it has these stepped studs, the heads you bought were mis-represented. Although you can make or buy a kit to make these stepped studs adjustable, I wouldn`t reccomend a solid cam, or larger hyd. cam with the pressed studs.------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed 10.20@130mph
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed 12.8@105mph
85 Mustang NHRA Stocker under construction, 302 5 speed
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sprcoop
Gearhead Posts: 559
From: Tucson, AZ usa
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 10-17-2001 12:24 AM
Thanks Rory, these are D00E heads so they would have the step if they were stock and they don't. I'm still not sure they are screw in but it wouldn't make any sense to change from 5/16 to 3/8 pressed. After thinking about it I'm going to have hardened valve seats put in so I will let the machine shop determine the true nature of these studs while I have them in. I will have them done if necessary as I intend on using the Comp Cams 270S (solid)cam eventually. Any idea on the aprox. cost of having it done if necessary? Thanks.
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Candy Apple Red
66' Coupe
Wide Ratio Toploader
2V 302 (icky!)
15" Styled Steel Wheels
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franklin
Gearhead Posts: 131
From: VA
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 10-17-2001 01:06 AM
I thought you have to use guideplates if you didn't want to use the stock rocker arms. Something has to keep the rocker and the pushrod aligned. You also need hardened pushrods if you use guideplates.
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Rory McNeil
Gearhead Posts: 1720
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 10-17-2001 03:25 AM
Franklin, yes, unless you have a set of the early (up until part way thru 66, I believe)260-289 heads that have a narrow slot for the pushrod, guide plates would be required if the rail rockers were not to be used. The early heads used the narrow pushrod slot, & cast iron non rail rockers. Then the rail rockers were introduced, & with them, the pushrod holes were a large round hole. Then in early 78 the bolt down stamped steel rockers came out. I have a pair of C9OE 351W heads on my Fairmonts 302, & I am using the rail rockers. I have also replaced the non adjustable pressed in studs with pressed in early style adjustable studs. I did this with the engine complete & in the car & after several years of service. So far I haven`t had any problems with the pressed studs or the iron rail rockers, even though I race the car frequently, but then my cam is a pretty mild Blue Racer hydraulic, & I only rev it 5500 rpm.------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed 10.20@130mph
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed 12.8@105mph
85 Mustang NHRA Stocker under construction, 302 5 speed
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RonnieT
Gearhead Posts: 895
From: Port Allen, La. 70767
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 10-17-2001 08:51 PM
Franklin, Comp Cams makes a set of Magnum Roller Rockers designed as a direct replacement for the rail type rocker arms. No guide plates needed.
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Ronnie
69 mach1 351W-4V
70 Torino GT 351C-4v with a "shaker"
Mustangs and More Member #23
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sprcoop
Gearhead Posts: 559
From: Tucson, AZ usa
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 10-18-2001 12:22 AM
Rory,
From your post I guess there is a reason to swap the original pressed in studs for adjustable ones. Also, when you talk about the "Fairmonts 302" are you talking about:80 Fairmont 302 5 speed 12.8@105mph? How do you get in the 12's with a mild cam and only reving to 5500? Do you have it stripped to 1500 pounds or something? I would be ecstatic to get my car in the 12's. What's your secret? Ronnie,
roller rockers sound like a good idea. Do you need a roller cam to use them? ------------------
Candy Apple Red
66' Coupe
Wide Ratio Toploader
2V 302 (icky!)
15" Styled Steel Wheels
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 27870
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 10-18-2001 10:50 AM
Most machine shops will install screw in studs for $80 or so plus the cost of the studs.  ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00 & '01
Fleet of FoMoCo products
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link
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sprcoop
Gearhead Posts: 559
From: Tucson, AZ usa
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 10-18-2001 04:45 PM
Thanks for the numbers on the screw in studs Alex. Seems like cheap insurance.
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 46243
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 10-18-2001 07:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Most machine shops will install screw in studs for $80 or so plus the cost of the studs.
You have great connections. I was just quoted $300 to cut the stands a drill&tap my spare Cleveland heads. 
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RonnieT
Gearhead Posts: 895
From: Port Allen, La. 70767
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 10-18-2001 10:11 PM
sprcoop, No you do not need a roller cam to use roller rockers. If you go to this page you can see a picture of the Comp Cams Magnum Rockers
http://www.camhelp.com/catalog/282.html Here is all teh specs on this page
http://www.camhelp.com/catalog/283.html And just for everyones info Comp Cams has there whole catalog on-line at this site
http://www.camhelp.com ------------------
Ronnie
69 mach1 351W-4V
70 Torino GT 351C-4v with a "shaker"
Mustangs and More Member #23
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Rory McNeil
Gearhead Posts: 1720
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 10-19-2001 03:52 AM
Steve, I would imagine the 351 C would cost more due to the increased set up time required for the multiple valve angles on the Cleveland.
sprcoop: no, my Fairmont weighs a still pretty light 3200 lbs with me in it (& I`m not exactly petite!) The engine is a original 78 Fairmont 302 that I originally rebuilt bone stock back in 93. A buddy of mine had a used set of Heddman headers he took out of his 84 T Bird, got them for $20.00, found a Mustang 8.8 with a posi & 3.55`s for $200.00, then my wife bought me a Edelbrock Performer 289 intake for my birthday, & things progressed from there. So, the main components are: .040 cast flat top pistons with eyebrows ( stock for a 78 Fairmont),69 351W heads, rebuilt with hardened exh. seats,new guides, 1.84I, 1.54E valves (stock 351W size), mild cleanup of the exh. ports,a $99.00 Blue Racer hyd. cam& lifter kit,Performer int with a 550 cfm Holley OE from a 76 Ford 390 PU truck, recurved original DuraSpark dist, 1 1/2" Heddman headers with a OE 94 Mustang GT dual exh system (no cats) T5 5speed, 3.55 geared 8.8 rear,& a pair of 8.5x26-15 MT slicks.Now, it took a lot of minor tweaking & experimenting to get in running good at the track, but this minor combination has been at this stage for several years, & is very docile as a daily driver. To get the car in the 12`s, I opened the headers, pulled the belts, ran the engine cool, & launched the car at 5000RPM. In normal race trim, I leave the exhaust hooked up, leave at 3000-3600 rpm, leave the belts on, & it will normally run 13.4-13.6 @ 100 mph. Just for fun I brought it out to one of our "Street Legal" drags, & was able to run a best of 13.54 @ 101mph in full street trim, including the skinny 14" whitewall tires. It was a blast beating a couple of 5.0 Mustangs, a 69 SS396 Camaro, a 98 Z28, as well as a few other cars with my "grandma" car. Several years prior, I ran the car with the C4 with a 2400 stall B&M convertor, but it was almost a full second slower with the auto. ------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed 10.20@130mph
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed 12.8@105mph
85 Mustang NHRA Stocker under construction, 302 5 speed
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 27870
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 10-19-2001 10:57 AM
Rory is right Steve. $80 is for SBF or SBC non canted valve. They want $160 for 351C, 460, BBC, or anything with canted valves due ot the double set up time.  ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00 & '01
Fleet of FoMoCo products
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 46243
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 10-19-2001 07:53 PM
That's still twice as much. I'll go punch out my machinist now...------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC Be American, Drive American!
IP: Logged |
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