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Author Topic:   Power disk brakes (LOT'S of questions)
SundanceKid
Gearhead

Posts: 1237
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 06-20-2001 02:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SundanceKid   Click Here to Email SundanceKid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Haven't posted in a while, but I am still here! LOL


I am going to attempt to convert my 65 with drums to disk brakes. I may go the SS brake route with the four piston jobies, or the Granada setup.
Anyone have an opinion on wich route to take? What setup is better and why?

Also, I don't know wich way to go when it comes to power assisted brakes. Should I go with a manual setup or consider power brakes?
I have seen articles on dozens of differant ways to get power brakes, Geo booster and master, Maveric setups, truck setups, ect.

Each of which says the others doesn't work!

So wich setup works? What is easiest and cheapest? With the least compromises?

I have never driven a car with manual disks, only manual drum but drum brakes have spring assist built in. When a power brake car's booster goes out is that what I am to expect from a manual disk system? Seems dangerous!

So if any of you out there have any answers to the above questions please help a guy out!

Part numbers and great detail will be much appreciated!

Thanks!


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richard bohm
Gearhead

Posts: 373
From: tucson,az-luray,va
Registered: May 2001

posted 06-20-2001 04:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for richard bohm   Click Here to Email richard bohm     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
either the stock 4 piston or the granada single piston system will work fine for the street. as for the power booster, every one has a different opinion as to what works. i personaly am considering the hydroboost power brake system(just to throw more confusion at you). when a vacuum power booster(or the hydroboost for that matter) goes out you have manual brakes with much higher pedal pressure. that goes with the territory. not much you can do except keep up the maintanence. if you have or are going to install power steering then the hydroboost option does come in to play. it runs off the power steering pump as the name implies. again the choice is yours, there are a number of setups out there and they all work pretty well for a street car. i wouldnt race with most of them though.

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JAAZZY
Gearhead

Posts: 772
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-20-2001 11:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for JAAZZY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Someone hre on the forum aid that the Wilwood brake setup is nice. I have 4 wheel disc and it's all manual. It's not a daily driver but I'm happy with it as a manual system. I will most likely leave it this way.

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richard bohm
Gearhead

Posts: 373
From: tucson,az-luray,va
Registered: May 2001

posted 06-21-2001 04:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for richard bohm   Click Here to Email richard bohm     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i know i like the wilwood setup, as well as the baer racing setup, and cobra automotive,
brembo(now we get in to money!).

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Doc
Gearhead

Posts: 466
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 06-21-2001 04:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doc   Click Here to Email Doc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've used the SSB 4 wheel kit and the Wilwood 4 wheel kit with vented rotors, both are non power and I'd just say they both require less pedal pressure than a non power drum but more than either power disc or drum. The SSB is a very good kit but not as neat as the Wilwood and the SSB cost more. I also like the Wilwood e brake setup better. If it's a daily driver the SSB is more rugged and roughly 3 times the weight.

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JAAZZY
Gearhead

Posts: 772
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-21-2001 04:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JAAZZY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Baer has that setup with Alcon 6 piston calipers and 13.5" rotors. Looks bada$$. I will probably never need that much braking but it's very nice. Actually they have kits from mild to wild. I haven't checked prices but they can't be cheap.


quote:
Originally posted by richard bohm:
i know i like the wilwood setup, as well as the baer racing setup, and cobra automotive,
brembo(now we get in to money!).

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SundanceKid
Gearhead

Posts: 1237
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 06-22-2001 04:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SundanceKid   Click Here to Email SundanceKid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the replies!

I have access to the Alcon, Baer,and Wilwood stuff but am not going that route this time around.
I'm looking for good reliable breaks that won't scare the stuff outa me when it is important! I am used to cars with WAY more brakes then nessesary SCCA/daily drivers, but on my mustang I just want it to stop like a 90's standard passenger car and have enough brakes to race an ocasional SCCA lap or two.
I have desided on doing the Granada setup as no one here or anywere I have read give any real benifit to doing other swaps.

I have a manual trans car and am still unsure if I should go with manual or power assist? At this point it sounds crazy to have disc brakes without power assist but, hey that's how they do it on the serious race cars right? Talk me into it it LOL.

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mellowyellow
Gearhead

Posts: 6609
From: So. Fl.
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 06-22-2001 07:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mellowyellow     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'll give an opinion re SSb brakes. If it wasn't for style wheels, I'd go with something other than the SSB setup. Why? The brakes on my 65 work ok-there is nothing wrong with the product as far as operation goes. The setup has a single chamber master and no power assist. They just do not seem to have the stopping power { a 36 yr old design}. My 68 with power front drum seemed to have better stopping power. The Granada setup is similar to the 68 up single piston caliper system, I believe. They seem to stop a little better and are more trouble free. Talked to a man with the Wilwood setup which he installed after taking the SSB setup off. He claimed better stopping power. Yesterday I saw a 66 cv with power disc. The booster looked like the 65 power booster and the master was SSb style. They had cut the brace to accomodate the master. A modified export brace would have been better. Hope to find out how it works today as I would like power in my 65. I read in a mag that the Trans Am Racing booster is not big enough-reader write in. PS The style wheels are a fit problem with different systems. The Wilwood guy I talked to has MAgnums.

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68Mustang
Gearhead

Posts: 174
From: Auburn, AL
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 06-22-2001 11:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68Mustang   Click Here to Email 68Mustang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Where can I get some information on the Wilwood calipers, do they sell in kits or is it all just piecemealed together? Had to go to non-power set up so I want something better than the single piston.

Thanks
Marshall

------------------
1968 302 5-spd Fastback, Modified
1965 Coupe
1981 F-150

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mellowyellow
Gearhead

Posts: 6609
From: So. Fl.
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 06-22-2001 11:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mellowyellow     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wilwood Engineering is in Ca. Their sales no. is 805-388-1188 Web: www.wilwood.com

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mellowyellow
Gearhead

Posts: 6609
From: So. Fl.
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 06-22-2001 11:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mellowyellow     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
FORgot! Master Power Brakes is another source. Their no is 888-251=2353 Web is: www.mpbrakes.com They are in NC

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wvcat
Gearhead

Posts: 281
From: New Cumberland,WV
Registered: May 2001

posted 06-22-2001 11:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wvcat   Click Here to Email wvcat     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Sundance,
I have a 70 cougar with stock pdb and it stops on a dime and I have never had any trouble with them since I bought the car. I would consider changing to this setup, its probably a bolt in, works great, and would probably be a lot cheaper. I saw a disc braske setup listed on ebay earlier this evening but I didn't look at the detail because I don't need one and I can't remember what the current bid was.
Good Luck

------------------
Thanks
John
(wvcat)
http://www.geocities.com/wvxr7cougar/wvcat_01.html?989286238390

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SundanceKid
Gearhead

Posts: 1237
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 06-23-2001 02:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SundanceKid   Click Here to Email SundanceKid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, I want my stang to be as easy and confortable to drive as possible! I have been driveing practicaly race cars on the street for quite a while and as fun as that sounds it can be a pain in the butt (literaly)!

I may step up to a bigger cam then usual for the street so this may or may not effect my dicision?
If my mustang will stop as good as a 90's car with manual disc brakes then I will be more then happy with them. If it takes a block to plan stops this won't do!

Can anyone compare a manual disc brake system to a new car? This may help my decision.

basicly we are looking at the same brakeing power but differant pedal effort right?

Thanks, richard,JAAZZY,Doc,Mellow,68,and wvcat for the replies! I appreciate them very much!

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Doc
Gearhead

Posts: 466
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 06-23-2001 02:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doc   Click Here to Email Doc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Pedal pressure is relitive to master cylinder size vs wheel/slave cylinder size. As an example, a 1" bore wheel cylinder and a 1" bore master cylinder has no hydraulic advantage so you'd have to use both feet to stop it in a 100 feet coasting from 10 MPH. Since we're dealing with circles and I'm not a math whiz I don't know the true formula and it would also be affected by the mechanical advantage (pedal arm lenght) and brake lining material. A 1/2" bore master and a 1" wheel cylinder would have super hydraulic advantage but the master has to move enough fluid to fill the wheel cylinder so the stroke gets longer and pedal travel becomes the issue. The thing I'm trying to say is if you find out what the relitive sizes are in each braking system you can know which will have the least effort at the pedal for the most stopping power.

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JAAZZY
Gearhead

Posts: 772
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-23-2001 04:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JAAZZY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I wish I could do that for you but I haven't driven it for awhile and the new motor is going in it now. It will be a few weeks before I can go out and compare.

I did hot lap the car on a road course for hour going almost all out and didn't have any problems with the brakes. I got them hot and they still worked fine.

My combo is stock front discs and SSB rear discs with a 67 dual master. I do plan to upgrade the brakes down the road with something insane like you were talking about. Since you know about those systems(Baer, Alcon) maybe you can share some experiences with us.

quote:
Originally posted by SundanceKid:

Can anyone compare a manual disc brake system to a new car? This may help my decision.

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SundanceKid
Gearhead

Posts: 1237
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 06-25-2001 03:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SundanceKid   Click Here to Email SundanceKid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What do you need to know (Baer, Alcon)?

I go through a company back east haer or hoer racing big circletrack and roadrace supliers they can sell you any thing from 100.00 a caliper (Wilwood) or 1,200.00 a caliper (Alcon). Dual to eight piston calipers from cast to titanium! I think they can get ahold of composite rotors as well? I'll post a web site when I can find my catalog (building a house everything is packed) One thing I have found on many sites on GVM swaps is the authors state easier brakeing it obtained by a larger master cylinder bores when the oposite is true!
Statements like "If the pedal pressure is too high change from 7/8" to 1" M/C bore size."
Luckily I know differant, but others might not! And could get seriously get harmed or killed!
Doc is 100% right on in hydralic theory!

Anyone happen to know the pedal ratio of a stock 64-66 brake pedal? That is, the measurement from the center of the pedal to the M/C rod pin and then to the mounting hole? This would tell the pedal ratio. Again I am all packed up and yes, that includes the brake pedal LOL!

I have read here on this forum that the Boss 302 book gives specs for a 68 F250 truck as the M/C of choice?
What is the Boss 302 Chassis book?
Anyone know of any late model cars with a 7/8" or 3/4" bore M/C?
Anyone know how to find out what size a master cylinder bore is? Is there a chart or something?

Thanks for the help again!

[This message has been edited by SundanceKid (edited 06-25-2001).]

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SundanceKid
Gearhead

Posts: 1237
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 06-25-2001 03:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SundanceKid   Click Here to Email SundanceKid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Also, anyone know the bore diameter of the Granada caliper cylinder?

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JAAZZY
Gearhead

Posts: 772
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-25-2001 11:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for JAAZZY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was just referring to a killer street/track setup for an early Mustang. I've never heard anything about any of the kits other than the regular ones like the ones I use. I just wanted to know some pros and cons of the ones you've experienced with early Mustangs.

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SundanceKid
Gearhead

Posts: 1237
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 06-25-2001 04:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SundanceKid   Click Here to Email SundanceKid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I only know of Wilwood and SSB as haveing kits available to bolt on. Then again, I haven't looked into more agressive brakeing options either. Trying to keep this mod down to earth! Probably will end up over doing it though! LOL

Anyone have info on the above measurements or were to get them?

TIA

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74merc
Gearhead

Posts: 865
From: Demopolis AL
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-25-2001 06:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 74merc   Click Here to Email 74merc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
my disc setup needs work, I can stop, but my proportioning block went out or I'm bypassing in my MC... it stops fine, so I haven't touched it yet...
cpmaverick has 4 wheel discs on his Mav, I'm pretty sure manual.
if he looks at this post...

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cpmaverick
Gearhead

Posts: 1665
From: Santa Clarita, CA
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 06-25-2001 07:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cpmaverick   Click Here to Email cpmaverick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey here I am in the Mustang forum again

I originally started with 4-wheel drum manual brakes on my Maverick. They stopped ok but faded almost immediately. I switched to Granada front discs (11") in the front first. This swap is detailed here. The car stopped well after the fronts were installed, but I wanted a traction-lock rearend and was unable to find a reasonable 8" unit so I bought a Versailles 9" rear with 10" vented discs. Since the Granada discs are the same as the Versailles fronts it is a well matched set. That swap is detailed here.

My car stops very well. I need to implement an adjustable rear bias to get the best performance out of the setup but it stops as well or better than the average new car. The Maverick is so light that power brakes aren't really necessary, in fact they weren't even an option until 1975 (6 years into production).

Pedal effort is more, and I notice this when I drive another vehicle for awhile. But press harder and you'll stop. The extra pressure actually helps keep the brakes from locking up (though they will if you want them to).

When the power booster goes on a power brake vehicle, the pedal is MUCH harder than a manual brake setup because you are pushing against the diaphram in the booster.

I drive this car everyday, so it has been proven pretty well.

I recommend the Granada front brakes because parts are easy to get and the rotors are pretty big (11"). Lets face it, brakes wear out.

For the rears, an aftermarket conversion would probably be best, although I have heard that Explorer rear discs will bolt right up (can't confirm it) to an 8" or 9" rear.

------------------
-Charlie Ping
1970 Maverick Grabber
-1987 5.0L B303 roller cam/rockers
-1968 Mustang Toploader
-1977 Lincoln Versailles 9 inch w/discs
-1980 Granada Front Discs
www.MAVERICKGRABBER.com

[This message has been edited by cpmaverick (edited 06-25-2001).]

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RonnieT
Gearhead

Posts: 821
From: Port Allen, La. 70767
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-25-2001 10:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RonnieT   Click Here to Email RonnieT     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The MOTOR Auto Repair manual I have shows the Granada front calipers bore as 2.6" and the rear caliper bore as 2.1". The master cylinder bore is 15/16" with manual disc or power disc, four wheel power disc m/c bore is 1". From what I see listed Ford only used a 1" and 15/16" m/c bore from 64 - 77.

------------------
Ronnie
69 mach1 351W-4V
70 Torino GT 351C-4v with a "shaker"
Mustangs and More Member #23

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SundanceKid
Gearhead

Posts: 1237
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 06-26-2001 04:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SundanceKid   Click Here to Email SundanceKid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks cpmaverick, that is what I have been realy looking for is a honest opinion! Thankyou again!
RonnieT, thanks for the numbers I will do my part now and crunch some numbers and see if I can find out the optimal setup for the master cylinder size.

I also found this site

www.westcoastfalcons.com/scff/racing/racing1.htm

It is a falcon site but uses the same setup and races vintage events with fair success.
This to me says it must have some brakeing power under race conditions.

Again thanks for the help guys, I will see if I can come up with some more info!

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