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Author Topic:   351C vs. 351W
H8CHEVY
Gearhead

Posts: 258
From: Southern Cali
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 06-09-2001 09:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for H8CHEVY   Click Here to Email H8CHEVY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Can anyone explain in details the difference between the clevland and the windsor?? other than the different plants and the different quality of metal in the two blocks... thanks alot!

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H8CHEVY
Gearhead

Posts: 258
From: Southern Cali
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 06-09-2001 09:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for H8CHEVY   Click Here to Email H8CHEVY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ooops.. cleveland... error correction!

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 5569
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 06-09-2001 10:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
They are two completely different engines that share the same cubic inches and bell housings! Generally speaking the Windsor has the better block and the Cleveland has the better heads. The C used to be the preffered Hot Rod engine, but with aftermarket heads the W can run with a C and last longer in the process. IMO anyway. A Cleveland can make more hp for less $$ because you don't need the aftermarket heads. Clear as mud?

SteveW

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tempo1993
Gearhead

Posts: 583
From: CT, the home of high taxes
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 06-10-2001 01:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for tempo1993   Click Here to Email tempo1993     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If I'm not mistaken, the C is also considered a mid-big block while the W is a small block? Teacher told me that, BIG ford guy, isn't the 351M considered a mid-big block also?

~Scott~

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richard bohm
Gearhead

Posts: 373
From: tucson,az-luray,va
Registered: May 2001

posted 06-10-2001 04:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for richard bohm   Click Here to Email richard bohm     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
the 351c has better stock heads, shorter deck height, shorter rod and consequently a poorer rod/stroke ratio, and less overall aftermarket equipment available for it these days. the 351w has better aftermarket heads and more variety(find a set of 351c heads with 4 valves per cylinder or find an overhead cam conversion kit for the 351c), more over durabilty and better ci capacity. you can also run a much longer rod in the 351w if oyu like. both engines can make a lot of power. the w works better below 6500 the c better above 6500. yes ford is basing the nascar engines on the 351w but if you check the specs it uses the 351c main journal diameters. a good idea if you build a race motor but not needed for the street. a case can be made for both engine's. i prefer the 351w but i have built 351c's for the street and track. both make fine race and street engine's but the 351c has the better performance reputation(it is well deserved though) but the 351w is gaining respect(finally!!). you pasy your money and takes your choice. hope this clears the mud somewhat(ok so you now have less deep mud to go through.).

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Jim Sams
Journeyman

Posts: 55
From: Charlotte NC
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 06-11-2001 10:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim Sams   Click Here to Email Jim Sams     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
All of the above post are correct.
The main thing is that 4V Clev. heads
will flow more air than any street oriented
"W" aftermarket heads. You have to go with canfield "R" heads or AFR 205cc "W" heads to approach the airflow of the Cleveland. Of course many of the race oriented heads can beat the non-ported clev head.
It all boils down to cost. For cheap a cleveland is the way to go. SCAT makes a 3.85 and 4.00 stroke crank that fits a cleveland for 393 and 408 ci respectively.
BTW you can generally only bore a clev. block .030 or so.
For a fat wallet, build a 427W with aftermarket high flow heads.
BTW the only problem with Clev.s is header selection, although sanderson headers now make a "Shorty" style header for the 351C in a 69-73 mustang. (should also work in a 67-68)

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70grande
Journeyman

Posts: 74
From: Renton, Washington
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 06-11-2001 01:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70grande   Click Here to Email 70grande     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
what about this? I have a 351w, and a set of cleveland heads can they be put on the windsor? just a thought

------------------
1970 Grande 3.50 9",4 wheel disc, gt40-cobra rims(soon) 351W, Calypso Coral, Severe state of restomod

[This message has been edited by 70grande (edited 06-11-2001).]

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 5569
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 06-11-2001 01:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 70grande:
what about this? I was a 351w, and a set of cleveland heads can the be put on the windsor? just a thought


That makes a "Clevor" It was more popular before aftermarket heads became available for the Windsors. Finding the intake for a Clevor is the hard/expensive part.

SteveW

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JAAZZY
Gearhead

Posts: 745
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-11-2001 01:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JAAZZY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Try Bush Performance at 501-646-9108
I also think B&A Ford has this stuff. I think they are out of Virginia.


quote:
Originally posted by 70grande:
what about this? I have a 351w, and a set of cleveland heads can they be put on the windsor? just a thought


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MrXerox
Gearhead

Posts: 284
From: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 06-11-2001 02:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MrXerox   Click Here to Email MrXerox     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Has anyone here ever built a Clevor? What kind of power figures can you obtain from one?

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JAAZZY
Gearhead

Posts: 745
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-11-2001 03:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JAAZZY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I had a friend that built a few years ago. He used them in racing applications but I don't think he ever put them on a dyno. I think they are better in terms of cost not power. A 351W with aftermarket heads will make more power but you could probably get in the same ballpark for half the cost with the Clevor.

quote:
Originally posted by MrXerox:
Has anyone here ever built a Clevor? What kind of power figures can you obtain from one?

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Jim Sams
Journeyman

Posts: 55
From: Charlotte NC
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 06-11-2001 03:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim Sams   Click Here to Email Jim Sams     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Unless you are going for a big stroker, there is no reason to do a clevor.
Just use a cleveland block and heads (if you want) for engines under 400 cubic inches.
Any benefits to the clevor is outweighed by the cost of doing it.

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Tom351
Journeyman

Posts: 93
From: Marietta,GA
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 06-11-2001 04:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom351   Click Here to Email Tom351     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
An advantage of the Windor is the growing selection of aluminum heads that are available.

------------------
67 Fastback - Arctic White Pearl paint
351W ,Trick Flow Aluminum Heads, Edelbrock TorkerII, Carter 750 CFM, Comp. Cam 477/510 219/[email protected], Performance Automatic C-4 Trans, 3.55 gears, Front Disc Brakes, 1-1/8" Fr. 3/4" rear sway bars.

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Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 792
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-11-2001 05:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv   Click Here to Email Mpcoluv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tom351:
An advantage of the Windor is the growing selection of aluminum heads that are available.


Yes, but the really high flow aftermarket heads require a lot of "special" parts.
Such as the Edelbrock Victor, TW "R", Brodix Neal heads etc....

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70grande
Journeyman

Posts: 74
From: Renton, Washington
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 06-11-2001 07:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70grande   Click Here to Email 70grande     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
sounds like i should just stick to building the widsor, thanks

------------------
1970 Grande 3.50 9",4 wheel disc, gt40-cobra rims(soon) 351W, Calypso Coral, Severe state of restomod

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cpmaverick
Moderator

Posts: 1534
From: Auburn, AL.
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 06-11-2001 08:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cpmaverick   Click Here to Email cpmaverick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tempo1993:
If I'm not mistaken, the C is also considered a mid-big block while the W is a small block? Teacher told me that, BIG ford guy, isn't the 351M considered a mid-big block also?

~Scott~


I've never heard that terminology before. Anyone else?

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 30721
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 06-11-2001 08:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Some people call the 335 series 'medium blocks.' {I don't.}

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.50 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC {Wife's car...}
All Fords since 1977

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70mach1
Journeyman

Posts: 5
From: Minnesota
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 08-26-2002 03:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70mach1   Click Here to Email 70mach1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Cleveland had 8 bolts on each valve cover where the Windsor only had six. I was also told that the valley width on the cleveland is much wider than the windsor. The heads on a Cleveland wether they were 2v or 4v heads, they were both much bigger hi flow heads than the windsor. The Cleveland is classified neither a small block or a Big block but a mid big block.

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mustangboy
Gearhead

Posts: 482
From: Ont, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 08-27-2002 01:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mustangboy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't think anybody mentioned the cleveland has "canted" valves (like a 460) where the windsors are inline.I've never heard of a mid big block only small blocks and big blocks and both 351s fall under the smallblock catagory in my opinion.

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indyphil
Gearhead

Posts: 411
From: Lafayette, IN, USA
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 08-27-2002 11:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for indyphil   Click Here to Email indyphil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mustangboy I think is right but dont forget the M blocks (351M and 400M) are big blocks.

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68DARKHORSE
Gearhead

Posts: 282
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 08-27-2002 07:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68DARKHORSE   Click Here to Email 68DARKHORSE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Big/small block is determined by bore spacing. The Cleveland has small block bore spacing. The t-stat is in the block on the C. The timing chain housing is also built-in on the C block(you cover it with a steel plate).

Hooker has headers for the Cleveland(they fit nice).

BTW you can stuff a tennis ball in the intake ports of a 4V Cleveland head. Anyone need a set?

------------------
Alton

68 GT FASTBACK J code
http://www.bullittclub.com/phpBB/Uploads/1020432917.jpg
01 GT BULLITT
http://www.bullittclub.com/phpBB/Uploads/1020440453.jpg
70 SR 351C
96 OJ BRONCO

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Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 792
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 08-27-2002 08:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv   Click Here to Email Mpcoluv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 68DARKHORSE:

BTW you can stuff a tennis ball in the intake ports of a 4V Cleveland head. Anyone need a set?


Closed Chamber? How much?

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68DARKHORSE
Gearhead

Posts: 282
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 08-28-2002 09:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68DARKHORSE   Click Here to Email 68DARKHORSE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Closed chamber D0AE. They look like new(been stored 17 years). $500

Also have matching 4V intake. $100.

I can take pics.

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indyphil
Gearhead

Posts: 411
From: Lafayette, IN, USA
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 08-28-2002 10:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for indyphil   Click Here to Email indyphil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I thought big block/small block was determined by bolt pattern/bellhousing. Bore spacing sounds much more sensible a way to determine the size though. I have probably been wrong all this time.

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MASTIFF
Journeyman

Posts: 91
From: maumee, Ohio 43537
Registered: May 2001

posted 08-28-2002 08:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MASTIFF   Click Here to Email MASTIFF     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Actually Big block / Small Block I believe are Chevy terminology. I hear this aurguement all the time is the 351C a big block or a small block.......In my opinion the Cleveland should just be called the Ford 335 series. I do not wear a bowtie.

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Boss302
Gearhead

Posts: 841
From: Coleman, Wisconsin
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 08-28-2002 10:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Boss302   Click Here to Email Boss302     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MASTIFF:
[B]Actually Big block / Small Block I believe are Chevy terminology. B]

wow, i had no idear....so your saying it wouldn't be 'politically correct' to call my 5.0 a small block?

------------------
Max
-1989 Mustang GT (MaxTang)
225/50R15 tires
BBK Strut Brace
K&N Filter
4 cats, no muffs
180* stat
Member 1,861

"My Best Friends Are My Dog, and My Car"

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68DARKHORSE
Gearhead

Posts: 282
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 08-28-2002 10:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68DARKHORSE   Click Here to Email 68DARKHORSE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Boss302:
wow, i had no idear....so your saying it wouldn't be 'politically correct' to call my 5.0 a small block?


I don't know about that, but I know it's not correct to follow "actually" with "I believe".JK

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jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 1166
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 08-29-2002 01:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Clevlands make HP in the upper RPM band to take advantage of their canted valves and huge ports & small main journels. Look at what they were designed for. Originally they were on 302's aka the 302 boss, for one reason Ford wanted to win Trans am. You can race a clevland on a budget if you don't mind launching the car hard ( RPM's . Remember Bob Glidden? He did quite well with the 351C.
351w makes more low end torque, and with aftermarket heads they run as good as a 351c, sometimes better. The aftermarket folks didn't exactly cater to the clevelands like they did the windsors. Which one should you use? Depends on your budget. You can build a really hot clevland cheap, up to a point. If you plan to flog it on the track forever, stroke it and really improve it over the years, opt for the 351W. Clevors aren't bad if you have the pieces handy. I wouldn't invest a fortune in these peices though. I personally like the Clevelands but I'm predjudiced I raced one for 12 years. Actually, if it were me I'd stuff a 460 in it, but thats another story.

------------------
Jerry Smith
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag
"Only Lil boys wear Bowties"

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Dad Vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 397
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 08-29-2002 11:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dad Vishus   Click Here to Email Dad Vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Another issue here that hasn't been discussed is what car is this going in?

The overall width of the Cleveland with the big heads they have can be a problem in some cars. Early Mustangs would possibly be too narrow with stock front suspension. 67 and up would probably be OK since they were designed with FEs in mind.

While the Cleveland might shoehorn in, it can be a bear to work on. We ran one in the Granada for several years and while it fit, it was a stinker to work on. The Granada was a narrow car to begin with and factory motors were limited to 6 bangers and 302s.

I have seen some Mavericks with Clevelands installed and the headers, etc. were a plumbers nightmare. Also just about demands holes in the fenderwells to change plugs. Yuck!

Anyway, if your car has room for a big block, a Cleveland will fit OK, if not, I'd do some measuring.

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 30721
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 08-29-2002 07:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MASTIFF:
Actually Big block / Small Block I believe are Chevy terminology.

No, all marques use that terminology.

------------------
All Fords since 1977!

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68DARKHORSE
Gearhead

Posts: 282
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 08-30-2002 03:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68DARKHORSE   Click Here to Email 68DARKHORSE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you look in the back of your Ford Racing Performance Parts (FRPP) catolog you will find a section called "Small Block V-8 Engines". Listed are "289/302/351W/351C/351M/400". All of these engines have the same bore spacing and same bore diameter. The 351M/400 has a taller deck than the 351C. The 351M/400 uses the 429/460 bell housing while the 351C uses the small bell housing.

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