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Author
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Topic: 351C vs. 351W
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H8CHEVY
Gearhead Posts: 258
From: Southern Cali
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 06-09-2001 09:22 PM
   
Can anyone explain in details the difference between the clevland and the windsor?? other than the different plants and the different quality of metal in the two blocks... thanks alot!
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H8CHEVY
Gearhead Posts: 258
From: Southern Cali
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 06-09-2001 09:25 PM
ooops.. cleveland... error correction! 
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 5569
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 06-09-2001 10:13 PM
They are two completely different engines that share the same cubic inches and bell housings! Generally speaking the Windsor has the better block and the Cleveland has the better heads. The C used to be the preffered Hot Rod engine, but with aftermarket heads the W can run with a C and last longer in the process. IMO anyway.  A Cleveland can make more hp for less $$ because you don't need the aftermarket heads. Clear as mud?SteveW
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tempo1993
Gearhead Posts: 583
From: CT, the home of high taxes
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 06-10-2001 01:36 AM
If I'm not mistaken, the C is also considered a mid-big block while the W is a small block?  Teacher told me that, BIG ford guy, isn't the 351M considered a mid-big block also?~Scott~
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richard bohm
Gearhead Posts: 373
From: tucson,az-luray,va
Registered: May 2001
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posted 06-10-2001 04:05 AM
the 351c has better stock heads, shorter deck height, shorter rod and consequently a poorer rod/stroke ratio, and less overall aftermarket equipment available for it these days. the 351w has better aftermarket heads and more variety(find a set of 351c heads with 4 valves per cylinder or find an overhead cam conversion kit for the 351c), more over durabilty and better ci capacity. you can also run a much longer rod in the 351w if oyu like. both engines can make a lot of power. the w works better below 6500 the c better above 6500. yes ford is basing the nascar engines on the 351w but if you check the specs it uses the 351c main journal diameters. a good idea if you build a race motor but not needed for the street. a case can be made for both engine's. i prefer the 351w but i have built 351c's for the street and track. both make fine race and street engine's but the 351c has the better performance reputation(it is well deserved though) but the 351w is gaining respect(finally!!). you pasy your money and takes your choice. hope this clears the mud somewhat(ok so you now have less deep mud to go through.).
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Jim Sams
Journeyman Posts: 55
From: Charlotte NC
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 06-11-2001 10:59 AM
All of the above post are correct.
The main thing is that 4V Clev. heads
will flow more air than any street oriented
"W" aftermarket heads. You have to go with canfield "R" heads or AFR 205cc "W" heads to approach the airflow of the Cleveland. Of course many of the race oriented heads can beat the non-ported clev head.
It all boils down to cost. For cheap a cleveland is the way to go. SCAT makes a 3.85 and 4.00 stroke crank that fits a cleveland for 393 and 408 ci respectively.
BTW you can generally only bore a clev. block .030 or so.
For a fat wallet, build a 427W with aftermarket high flow heads.
BTW the only problem with Clev.s is header selection, although sanderson headers now make a "Shorty" style header for the 351C in a 69-73 mustang. (should also work in a 67-68)
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70grande
Journeyman Posts: 74
From: Renton, Washington
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 06-11-2001 01:03 PM
what about this? I have a 351w, and a set of cleveland heads can they be put on the windsor? just a thought------------------
1970 Grande 3.50 9",4 wheel disc, gt40-cobra rims(soon) 351W, Calypso Coral, Severe state of restomod [This message has been edited by 70grande (edited 06-11-2001).]
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 5569
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 06-11-2001 01:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 70grande:
what about this? I was a 351w, and a set of cleveland heads can the be put on the windsor? just a thought
That makes a "Clevor" It was more popular before aftermarket heads became available for the Windsors. Finding the intake for a Clevor is the hard/expensive part. SteveW
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JAAZZY
Gearhead Posts: 745
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 06-11-2001 01:57 PM
Try Bush Performance at 501-646-9108
I also think B&A Ford has this stuff. I think they are out of Virginia.
quote:
Originally posted by 70grande:
what about this? I have a 351w, and a set of cleveland heads can they be put on the windsor? just a thought
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MrXerox
Gearhead Posts: 284
From: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 06-11-2001 02:42 PM
Has anyone here ever built a Clevor? What kind of power figures can you obtain from one?
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JAAZZY
Gearhead Posts: 745
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 06-11-2001 03:10 PM
I had a friend that built a few years ago. He used them in racing applications but I don't think he ever put them on a dyno. I think they are better in terms of cost not power. A 351W with aftermarket heads will make more power but you could probably get in the same ballpark for half the cost with the Clevor. quote:
Originally posted by MrXerox:
Has anyone here ever built a Clevor? What kind of power figures can you obtain from one?
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Jim Sams
Journeyman Posts: 55
From: Charlotte NC
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 06-11-2001 03:47 PM
Unless you are going for a big stroker, there is no reason to do a clevor.
Just use a cleveland block and heads (if you want) for engines under 400 cubic inches.
Any benefits to the clevor is outweighed by the cost of doing it.
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Tom351
Journeyman Posts: 93
From: Marietta,GA
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 06-11-2001 04:00 PM
An advantage of the Windor is the growing selection of aluminum heads that are available.------------------
67 Fastback - Arctic White Pearl paint
351W ,Trick Flow Aluminum Heads, Edelbrock TorkerII, Carter 750 CFM, Comp. Cam 477/510 219/[email protected], Performance Automatic C-4 Trans, 3.55 gears, Front Disc Brakes, 1-1/8" Fr. 3/4" rear sway bars.
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Mpcoluv
Gearhead Posts: 792
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 06-11-2001 05:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Tom351:
An advantage of the Windor is the growing selection of aluminum heads that are available.
Yes, but the really high flow aftermarket heads require a lot of "special" parts.
Such as the Edelbrock Victor, TW "R", Brodix Neal heads etc....
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70grande
Journeyman Posts: 74
From: Renton, Washington
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 06-11-2001 07:30 PM
sounds like i should just stick to building the widsor, thanks------------------
1970 Grande 3.50 9",4 wheel disc, gt40-cobra rims(soon) 351W, Calypso Coral, Severe state of restomod
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cpmaverick
Moderator Posts: 1534
From: Auburn, AL.
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 06-11-2001 08:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by tempo1993:
If I'm not mistaken, the C is also considered a mid-big block while the W is a small block? Teacher told me that, BIG ford guy, isn't the 351M considered a mid-big block also?~Scott~
I've never heard that terminology before. Anyone else?
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 30721
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 06-11-2001 08:52 PM
Some people call the 335 series 'medium blocks.' {I don't.}------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.50 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC {Wife's car...}
All Fords since 1977
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70mach1
Journeyman Posts: 5
From: Minnesota
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 08-26-2002 03:43 PM
The Cleveland had 8 bolts on each valve cover where the Windsor only had six. I was also told that the valley width on the cleveland is much wider than the windsor. The heads on a Cleveland wether they were 2v or 4v heads, they were both much bigger hi flow heads than the windsor. The Cleveland is classified neither a small block or a Big block but a mid big block.
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mustangboy
Gearhead Posts: 482
From: Ont, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 08-27-2002 01:58 AM
I don't think anybody mentioned the cleveland has "canted" valves (like a 460) where the windsors are inline.I've never heard of a mid big block only small blocks and big blocks and both 351s fall under the smallblock catagory in my opinion.
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indyphil
Gearhead Posts: 411
From: Lafayette, IN, USA
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 08-27-2002 11:13 AM
Mustangboy I think is right but dont forget the M blocks (351M and 400M) are big blocks.
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68DARKHORSE
Gearhead Posts: 282
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 08-27-2002 07:50 PM
Big/small block is determined by bore spacing. The Cleveland has small block bore spacing. The t-stat is in the block on the C. The timing chain housing is also built-in on the C block(you cover it with a steel plate).Hooker has headers for the Cleveland(they fit nice). BTW you can stuff a tennis ball in the intake ports of a 4V Cleveland head. Anyone need a set? ------------------
Alton 68 GT FASTBACK J code
http://www.bullittclub.com/phpBB/Uploads/1020432917.jpg
01 GT BULLITT
http://www.bullittclub.com/phpBB/Uploads/1020440453.jpg
70 SR 351C
96 OJ BRONCO
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Mpcoluv
Gearhead Posts: 792
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 08-27-2002 08:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 68DARKHORSE:
BTW you can stuff a tennis ball in the intake ports of a 4V Cleveland head. Anyone need a set?
Closed Chamber? How much?
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68DARKHORSE
Gearhead Posts: 282
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 08-28-2002 09:24 AM
Closed chamber D0AE. They look like new(been stored 17 years). $500
Also have matching 4V intake. $100. I can take pics.
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indyphil
Gearhead Posts: 411
From: Lafayette, IN, USA
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 08-28-2002 10:19 AM
I thought big block/small block was determined by bolt pattern/bellhousing. Bore spacing sounds much more sensible a way to determine the size though. I have probably been wrong all this time.
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MASTIFF
Journeyman Posts: 91
From: maumee, Ohio 43537
Registered: May 2001
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posted 08-28-2002 08:49 PM
Actually Big block / Small Block I believe are Chevy terminology. I hear this aurguement all the time is the 351C a big block or a small block.......In my opinion the Cleveland should just be called the Ford 335 series. I do not wear a bowtie.
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Boss302
Gearhead Posts: 841
From: Coleman, Wisconsin
Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 08-28-2002 10:11 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MASTIFF:
[B]Actually Big block / Small Block I believe are Chevy terminology. B]
wow, i had no idear....so your saying it wouldn't be 'politically correct' to call my 5.0 a small block? ------------------
Max
-1989 Mustang GT (MaxTang)
225/50R15 tires
BBK Strut Brace
K&N Filter
4 cats, no muffs
180* stat
Member 1,861 "My Best Friends Are My Dog, and My Car"
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68DARKHORSE
Gearhead Posts: 282
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 08-28-2002 10:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Boss302:
wow, i had no idear....so your saying it wouldn't be 'politically correct' to call my 5.0 a small block?
I don't know about that, but I know it's not correct to follow "actually" with "I believe".JK
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jsracingbbf
Gearhead Posts: 1166
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 08-29-2002 01:50 AM
Clevlands make HP in the upper RPM band to take advantage of their canted valves and huge ports & small main journels. Look at what they were designed for. Originally they were on 302's aka the 302 boss, for one reason Ford wanted to win Trans am. You can race a clevland on a budget if you don't mind launching the car hard ( RPM's . Remember Bob Glidden? He did quite well with the 351C.
351w makes more low end torque, and with aftermarket heads they run as good as a 351c, sometimes better. The aftermarket folks didn't exactly cater to the clevelands like they did the windsors. Which one should you use? Depends on your budget. You can build a really hot clevland cheap, up to a point. If you plan to flog it on the track forever, stroke it and really improve it over the years, opt for the 351W. Clevors aren't bad if you have the pieces handy. I wouldn't invest a fortune in these peices though. I personally like the Clevelands but I'm predjudiced I raced one for 12 years. Actually, if it were me I'd stuff a 460 in it, but thats another story. ------------------
Jerry Smith
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag
"Only Lil boys wear Bowties"
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Dad Vishus
Gearhead Posts: 397
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 08-29-2002 11:52 AM
Another issue here that hasn't been discussed is what car is this going in?The overall width of the Cleveland with the big heads they have can be a problem in some cars. Early Mustangs would possibly be too narrow with stock front suspension. 67 and up would probably be OK since they were designed with FEs in mind. While the Cleveland might shoehorn in, it can be a bear to work on. We ran one in the Granada for several years and while it fit, it was a stinker to work on. The Granada was a narrow car to begin with and factory motors were limited to 6 bangers and 302s. I have seen some Mavericks with Clevelands installed and the headers, etc. were a plumbers nightmare. Also just about demands holes in the fenderwells to change plugs. Yuck! Anyway, if your car has room for a big block, a Cleveland will fit OK, if not, I'd do some measuring.
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 30721
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 08-29-2002 07:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MASTIFF:
Actually Big block / Small Block I believe are Chevy terminology.
No, all marques use that terminology.
------------------
All Fords since 1977!
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68DARKHORSE
Gearhead Posts: 282
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 08-30-2002 03:31 PM
If you look in the back of your Ford Racing Performance Parts (FRPP) catolog you will find a section called "Small Block V-8 Engines". Listed are "289/302/351W/351C/351M/400". All of these engines have the same bore spacing and same bore diameter. The 351M/400 has a taller deck than the 351C. The 351M/400 uses the 429/460 bell housing while the 351C uses the small bell housing.
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