Brought to you in part by:

.

Shop Eastwood for your Auto Restoration Needs!


  Mustangsandmore Forums
  '64 1/2 to '73 -- The Classic Mustang
  Clutch brand choices

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Clutch brand choices
KenB
Journeyman

Posts: 44
From: Regina, Sk, Canada
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 05-20-2001 09:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KenB   Click Here to Email KenB     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK, I have tracked down all the parts (I think) to put a T-5 in my 69 Cougar with a 351C-4V. I now need to start ordering but I have a few choices when it comes to clutch brands.

I will be using the late model bell-housing and a hydraulic clutch kit to operate the fork and thus will use a diaphram clutch. Future plans for engine would be around 350HP. Plan to continue to run 14" tires and will put in a 31 spline posi unit this fall that I have laying around. Rear gear will be changed at this time to give me a cruise RPM of around 2000 at 60 mph in 5th. Car is street driven only, maybe 2-3000 miles a year.

I am aware that the stock T-5 maybe a little under-rated on the torque but I'll have to find out for myself in the future. I don't expect to be attempting hard launches given the nature of the car and 351C-4V thus I don't think I need a serious clutch. I am thinking of one step up from the stock replacement clutch such as a heavy duty street (depending on clutch manufacturer).

I don't think Centerforce is in the plans for me, does anyone have comments on brands such as Hays or Ram? I will need to order a Hays steel flywheel already, I am wondering if anyone has any reason why I shouldn't order a Hays clutch kit also?

Thanks for any thoughts,
Ken

IP: Logged

jkilroy
Gearhead

Posts: 1744
From: Vicksburg, MS
Registered: Dec 99

posted 05-20-2001 09:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jkilroy   Click Here to Email jkilroy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Why would you rule out Centerforce? I really don't think you can beat Centerforce without spending some large dollars. The dual friciton is a killer piece. The best part is that the pedal effort is usually less than the factory parts and they are good for big power.

------------------
Jay Kilroy
68' Fastback GT 390
"No such thing as a cam thats too big"

IP: Logged

KenB
Journeyman

Posts: 44
From: Regina, Sk, Canada
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 05-20-2001 10:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KenB   Click Here to Email KenB     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jay, I was thinking that Centerforce is more suited to higher horsepower and/or harder launches but I guess it is really a matter a matching the right clutch to the right application.

This is essentially why I posted the question: Is not a Hays or Ram just as good a choice for my application or is Centerforce that much better?

Right now I am thinking that "street duty" or also known as "heavy duty" clutch would fit my requirements. And if so, it seems that the Hays, Ram, or Zoom clutches are a little less money than the Centerforce. I have not yet done extensive price comparisons and will do this after I get a few opinions. I will always spend extra money where ever it will pay off but as with everything I want to match all components as best I can so everything works well together and not waste money on anything that is over-kill.

Ken

IP: Logged

Rory McNeil
Gearhead

Posts: 1235
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 05-21-2001 02:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rory McNeil   Click Here to Email Rory McNeil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
On my high 12-low 13 second 302 Fairmont with T5, I`ve had a "Dyna pack" clutch available from regular auto parts stores fairly cheaply, in for over 5 years with no problem. I know my cars lighter than a Cougar, & has a smaller engine, but it has HUNDREDS of 1/4 mile runs on it, launching at 4000+ RPM WITH slicks, holds good enough to break axles! The Dyna pack kit was less than $200. Canadian when I bought it,comes with P.Plate, disc& bearing, & is marked "VALEO", which is the OE supplier for the 5.0 Mustangs. Mine is the 86+ 10 1/2" size diaphram unit. My old70 351C 70 Mustang had an 11" clutch, I don`t recall what 69`s used. Pedal effort is fairly light, & I would buy another one in a minute. Also if you look in the Summit catolog, they say the Centerforce is not for use with slicks. I think the Dyna pack would be a good candidate for a street tired car like this.

IP: Logged

richard bohm
Gearhead

Posts: 373
From: tucson,az-luray,va
Registered: May 2001

posted 05-21-2001 02:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for richard bohm   Click Here to Email richard bohm     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
first are you using the original flywheel that came with the engine?? or one of similar vintage?? or did you do the smart thing and step up to a billit steel flywheel?? if you are using the billit wheel the you have no problems with pressure plate bolt patterns. if not then you likely will need to go to centerforce as they are the only ones i know of that have a diaphram clutch that has the long style pressure plate bolt pattern. and they are quite different. also centerforce makes a dandy street clutch. yes hays, mcleod, and others are good too.

IP: Logged

KenB
Journeyman

Posts: 44
From: Regina, Sk, Canada
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 05-21-2001 11:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KenB   Click Here to Email KenB     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rory, if your "stock" clutch is holding up that well then if I went up one step to a heavy duty clutch then I should have no problem.

Richard, I am planning to buy a billet steel flywheel because it will have the dual pattern. If I buy a salvage yard unit then I limit myself to the 11" pattern and I still need to get it resurfaced. New seems to be the way to go here.

Thanks for the feedback.

Ken

IP: Logged

Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1539
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 05-21-2001 08:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rory: Dang Man! You've had the same clutch disc & pressure plate in your racer for 5 YEARS?! What is your 60' time & race weight?
--Maybe I don't need to be worrying about the condition of my McLeod PP and disc just quite yet - it's been 100 passes behind my 302 in my '69 Mach, 4spd, leaving at 5K, 1.73 60'ers & a car/driver/fuel weight of 3280#...

IP: Logged

Rory McNeil
Gearhead

Posts: 1235
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 05-22-2001 02:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rory McNeil   Click Here to Email Rory McNeil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ryan, its actually my daily driver. The car weighs 32-3300 lbs depending on amount of gas in tank, wheels, amount of lunch. Best 60 ft of 1.72, best ET 12.80 @05mph. Note, to get these times, thats with open headers, launching at 4800-5300 rpm. I normally run closed exhaust, with 32-3600 rpm launches, (the axles are much happier that way!)It normally will go 13.2 like that. I think the main factor in the clutch life has to be the 3.35 1rst gear ratio in the T5. Years ago when I ran my 70 Mach 1 (428CJ, 2.32 low gear toploader with 4.30 gears, 3800lbs) I normally had to replace my Hays or McLeod clutch every year as the 2.32 1rst just wasn`t low enough. With the 3.35 low & the 3.55`s in the rear, the overall gear ratio in first would be the same as the 428 car using 5.12`s! Gotta love that mechanical advantage!!

IP: Logged

Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1539
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 05-22-2001 08:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rory, if my math is correct, what you consider to be an optimium final drive ratio for your BBF package is in the neighborhood of 11.9, right? What would you recommend for a SBF package like mine? It seems to be happy with the almost 12.7 I've got now; via a 2.78 1st gear (wide-ratio Toploader) and 4.56 rear gears? Isn't the 'rule-of-thumb' that smaller motors have less torque so give them more gear? Hep me out here.....Thks, Ryan

IP: Logged

2bav8
Gearhead

Posts: 207
From: Mesa, AZ
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-22-2001 01:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 2bav8   Click Here to Email 2bav8     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I used two Hayes clutches, well actually 3 but the first one wasn't suited to the motor so I can't hold that one against them.
Anyways, their strip/street pressure plate (gold colored) that I used broke a finger the first time, and the second one broke a spring. Neither one lasted more than 5000 miles with just "sprited" street driving

I've been using a McLeod dual friction clutch now with my Tremec and its been doing a great job. Oh ya, its also lasted longer than 5000 miles!

If I wasn't so happy with the McLeod, I'd probably run the Centerforce.

------------------
2BAV8 Mustang
www.geocities.com/2bav8
[email protected]
1966 Restomod Coupe

IP: Logged

n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1590
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 05-22-2001 01:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Wilke:
Isn't the 'rule-of-thumb' that smaller motors have less torque so give them more gear?

The smaller the engine and the heavier the car... the more gear it needs to get moving.

I've always launched the car WFO... Wide F*****g Open. It's always been launched wide open at redline. The small engine seems to need all the rpm and gear it can get. A 2-step rev limiter is a god-send here... HIGHLY recommended on a stick car! The willingness to find those pesky weak links in the drivetrain is also a good plus.

Of course, a small shot of nitrous really takes the bog out of a holeshot.

Get a tie-down strap, chain, or cable for the drivers side of the engine. It gets torqued on VERY hard when launching on slicks.

For the hardest launches with a fast/heavy car, and especially 4-speeds, avoid..

1. 2-pinion traction lock rears (8" or 9")
2. 28 spline axles (especially those that came in the 57-59 fords)
3. Some standard 9" carriers (thin caps that the middle will break out of)
4. Stock 57-59 housing need the spring perches boxed (very weak perches). For really hard duty, the housing itself kind of on the weak side. I tweaked a couple out of shape before buying an aftermarket one.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/motorcitymustang/cmml/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

IP: Logged

Rory McNeil
Gearhead

Posts: 1235
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 05-23-2001 04:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rory McNeil   Click Here to Email Rory McNeil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ryan, I didn`t neccasarilly mean that I thought a 11.9 overall low gear was optimum, rather I was showing how the low (3.35) 1rst gear in the T5 more than made up for the taller gears that street driving dictates for comfortable highway use. Using OE trans ratios, your doing OK, but a 1rst gear around 3.00 or so would likely be a big improvment.Normally a bigger engine can get away with less gearing, but weight is a BIG factor. For example, one very well known A/S 3500 lb stick car running 10.0`s uses a 1rst gear ratio of 3.08 in his Jerico, some may think thats pretty low, but weight is a major consideration. I would think a lower 1rst gear is always a good thing (within reason) as long as the tires don`t spin. Another example would be my other Fairmont, which uses a "mild" 428 with a Jerico (2.93 low) with a 4.88 rear. At 130 mph I go through the lights at about 6300 rpm, which is about what I feel comfortable with.Going to a lower rear would help the launch, but RPM would be higher than I like. To get a stronger launch, only options are smaller slicks OR a lower 1rst gear in the trans. I can`t give a recommendation on a overall gear ratio for your car as I don`t feel qualified to do so. I was just relaying my experiances.

IP: Logged

Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1539
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 05-23-2001 11:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rory,
I hear what your saying about how important car weight is in getting the ET down. (Maybe I should also work on lightening up the driver! ) Thanks for sharing your experience

n2oMike,
I also appreciate your pointers You mentioned, "A 2-step rev limiter is a god-send here... HIGHLY recommended on a stick car!" I guess I should learn just what those babies are, how they work and what they can do for me.....

I'd like to think I have, "the willingness to find those pesky weak links in the drivetrain", but I'd like to weed out as many potential 'weak links' by listening & reading other folks experiences rather than breaking it to find it -- you know, change it out BEFORE it breaks....

I've got your recommended engine tie-down strap on the drivers side installed - it ended my clutch linkage from binding up.

Regarding your recommended list of things to AVOID when launching a fast/heavy car, with slicks & a 4-speeds, here are my responses:

#1. I have a 9" full spool
#2. I have 31-spline Moser axles
#3. It's a "N" case
#4. Too late, I collapsed mine two seasons ago - twisted everything into a giant pretzel. Now the NEW perches on my '69 (small bearing) housing are boxed. No problems since.

So here's the deal, guys -- after my pretzel-making experience, I installed the Mosers, the spool and new 5-leaf springs. On my current wish list is a pair of Cal-Tracs, but they're not here yet. I have 90/10 front shocks & welded frame connectors. It leaves straight, but NO noticable weight transfer is happening. I have installed the 5-way adjustable Rancho shocks recommended by Calvert, in preparation from his bars. Before the new rear shocks, the car launched best (no spin) with 20# in the 9" slicks; 1.80 60'ers. Since the new shocks, I'm spinning the slicks. Last time out, I adjusted my pressure in 2# steps from 20# down to 14# and they still spun.... any suggestions?? I'm
Ryan

IP: Logged

n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1590
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 05-23-2001 01:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Wilke:
Rory,

It leaves straight, but NO noticable weight transfer is happening. I have installed the 5-way adjustable Rancho shocks recommended by Calvert, in preparation from his bars. Before the new rear shocks, the car launched best (no spin) with 20# in the 9" slicks; 1.80 60'ers. Since the new shocks, I'm spinning the slicks. Last time out, I adjusted my pressure in 2# steps from 20# down to 14# and they still spun.... any suggestions?? I'm
Ryan


I've now got the same setup... Cal-Tracs and Rancho shocks. (Well, I'm going to ladder bars and mini-tubs, so the Cal-Tracs and shocks are for sale) Those shocks can be adjusted pretty stiff. I found they worked best at full soft (#1 setting).

Some sort of slapper bar, be it Cal-Tracs or whatever are mandatory. Set up properly, the rear of the car will actually RISE on launch. The slapper bar (which is attached to the axle) pushes UP on the body. This drives the axle DOWN into the pavement, planting the tires.

A good set of these traction bars (that bolt directly to the housing with the big U-bolts) will do wonders. Don't use the "cheapies" that just clamp to the springs.

My best 60ft ever came with a set of this type of slapper bar and a 28x9 MT slick... launching on nitrous. It was a 1.43 The car launched just as hard, and more consistently on a 26x10 Hoosier. It's best 60ft then was a 1.46, but that was with only a 150hp shot, instead of the 200hp jolt that produced the 1.43. Off the bottle, the car regularly 60fts in the mid 1.6's. Without the bottle, there is very little to zero spin launching at redline (6800-7000rpm) These are all with a 2.78 first gear and a 4.33 rear. The 26" tire worked best for me off the bottle. The 28" wants to bog a little... but those nitrous launches -will- spoil a person.

I didn't see any significant improvement with the Cal-Tracs over the slapper bars. They didn't do any worse... Make sure they work freely and don't bind up. Your mileage may vary.

Be sure to install the battery in the trunk, if you haven't already done so.

GET A 2-STAGE REV-LIMITER!!!!
These allow you to switch between two different rev limits. The car normally operates off the regular rev limit, but while a button is pushed, the rev limit is switch to a new "launch" setting. This allows you to press the button, floor the throttle, and have the revs just come up to your "launch" rpm... all the while having the throttle flat on the floor! When you go to take off, release the button, and blast off!!! This makes launching MUCH easier, and allows the car to take off with the throttle WIDE open. It makes for a really fun time.
If you have a MSD 6AL, the little 2-step box is only around $60, and worth every penny. If you have the MSD Digital 6+, it's built in! Other ignition companies offer 2-step boxes for their boxes as well. Call their tech line for a complete rundown. WOO-BAHHH!!!

Traction ON the bottle with my car is spotty at best. Sometimes the track is perfect and freshly "glued" with VHT, all the stars are in the right places, the temp is perfect, and the car just LEAPS out of the hole! Other times, it just takes off spinning, and bounces it way all the way through first gear. THIS is why I'm mini-tubbing the car. Maybe a 29x11.5x15 slick will make the world a happier place, when properly supported by Koni coil overs and ladder bars.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/motorcitymustang/cmml/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

IP: Logged

Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1539
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 05-24-2001 01:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
n2oMike,
Yep, I do have my battery in the right corner of the trunk. (FYI - I've sent you an e-mail inquiry on your Cal-Tracs)

I have the Mallory IVc box with (I think) has "two rev limiter stages"... Again, if I'm recalling correctly, the directions explained as, "..one limit for the burnout and one for the pass". I'm pretty sure there wasn't any "button" included or discussed. I guess I'll have to locate the directions that came with the box and read them again.

You mentioned, "This allows you to press the button, floor the throttle, and have the revs just come up to your "launch" rpm... all the while having the throttle flat on the floor! When you go to take off, release the button, and blast off!"

....nevertheless - so on the 2nd yellow, I'd push the button mash the go pedal, and on the last yellow (launch time), you release the button (which is holding back the motor at the set revs)and release your clutch; all the while holding the accelerator to the floor!??

Thanks again, Ryan

IP: Logged

Greenstang
Gearhead

Posts: 908
From: its all a fog..
Registered: May 2001

posted 05-24-2001 01:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Greenstang   Click Here to Email Greenstang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by n2oMike:
Of course, a small shot of nitrous really takes the bog out of a holeshot.


Mike, if that shot is small, can we talk about large shots?

------------------
Marcus
My World
``Two cars hitting the barriers is not an ideal way to finish the first day of practice for a Grand Prix,'' - Patrick Head

[This message has been edited by Greenstang (edited 05-24-2001).]

IP: Logged

n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1590
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 05-24-2001 03:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Wilke:

You mentioned, "This allows you to press the button, floor the throttle, and have the revs just come up to your "launch" rpm... all the while having the throttle flat on the floor! When you go to take off, release the button, and blast off!"

....nevertheless - so on the 2nd yellow, I'd push the button mash the go pedal, and on the last yellow (launch time), you release the button (which is holding back the motor at the set revs)and release your clutch; all the while holding the accelerator to the floor!??


Yes, and Yes...

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/motorcitymustang/cmml/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

IP: Logged

n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1590
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 05-24-2001 04:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Wilke:

I have the Mallory IVc box with (I think) has "two rev limiter stages"... Again, if I'm recalling correctly, the directions explained as, "..one limit for the burnout and one for the pass". I'm pretty sure there wasn't any "button" included or discussed. I guess I'll have to locate the directions that came with the box and read them again.

If it is set up for two different rpm limits, one will be the normal limit, and the other (launch) will be activated by a wire coming out of the box.

When power is applied to the "activating wire", the box will switch to the (launch) rev limit. When the power is switched off, the limit will go back to normal.

A button is normally used to turn the power to the wire on and off.

Your instructions will tell which wire this is. The box probably has little dials to set the rpm limits.

Have Fun!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/motorcitymustang/cmml/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

IP: Logged

n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1590
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 05-24-2001 04:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Greenstang:
Mike, if that shot is small, can we talk about large shots?


It really doesn't take much nitrous to really make a huge difference in a holeshot. A 100hp hit of the fun stuff will make you a believer.

Nitrous kind of follows the law of diminishing returns... You get a LOT more improvement out of that first 100hp than the second. Spraying harder and harder gives less and less improvement... but DOES get tougher and tougher on the engine.

You'd be surprised at what a 100hp shot of the funny stuff activated right from the starting line will do for a holeshot and ET. Just make sure it's tuned correctly, or you'll either get lackluster results or possibly hurt something.

If you want tuning tips, just say so... Over the last 8-9 years I've had lackluster results and a few hurt parts (at first),learned from it, then had good results. (Head gaskets are fragile things on 302's due their 10 measly 7/16" head bolts)

The last engine lasted several years with a stock crank, rods, block (no girdle) spraying bottle after bottle through it 200hp at a time... while pushing the 3300lb turd close to 130mph wheezing through a set of 289 heads.

It used to run like that using 150hp, but as the engine got more and more miles on it, the nitrous needed bumped up 50hp to account for wear.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/motorcitymustang/cmml/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

IP: Logged

Greenstang
Gearhead

Posts: 908
From: its all a fog..
Registered: May 2001

posted 05-24-2001 04:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Greenstang   Click Here to Email Greenstang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I know I've got your tuning tips saved to disk from off line e-mail and from Fordnatics
My (one of these years) nitrous'd Cleveland is still sitting in a corner gathering dust...

------------------
Marcus
My World
``Two cars hitting the barriers is not an ideal way to finish the first day of practice for a Grand Prix,'' - Patrick Head

IP: Logged

All times are ET (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Mustangsandmore Front Page

Copyright 2003, Steve LaRiviere. All Rights Reserved.


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.47d

Amazon Honor System Click Here to Pay Learn More

[Build a free Mustangsandmore.ws Home Page!]

[About M&M][Acronyms][Calendar][Chat][Classifieds] [Members' Pics] [M&M Mug Shots]

[ Mustangsandmore.com Bookstore] [Mustangsandmore.com T-Shirts][Tech Articles]