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Author
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Topic: 450hp
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Boss66
Gearhead Posts: 167
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: FEB 2000
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posted 10-02-2000 04:08 PM
 
I need a project, so I've decided to start building my next engine. My question is: What is the cheapest way to build 450hp out of a 351. I've initially been thinking I would copy the setup of the new Ford Racing crate engine (392 - 351w). On the other hand, I already have a set of 351c 4v (open) heads.
Also, what do you guys think about the Coast High products? Specifically, do you think a Coast High shortblock would be a good starting point?Boss66 P.S. No Nitrous
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Boss66
Gearhead Posts: 167
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: FEB 2000
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posted 10-02-2000 05:28 PM
66351stang,
How about a 351c stroked to 393 with stock 4v heads cleaned up a little bit and an aggressive solid roller cam profile. Add good ignition and intake. Would not this get me pretty close? Considering I've got the heads, which are freshly done, this would be pretty cheap.Later, Boss66
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Daniel Jones
Gearhead Posts: 790
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: AUG 99
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posted 10-02-2000 06:01 PM
Actually it is pretty simple to make that kind of power with a 351C. 4V quench heads with
flat top pistons (preferred) or open chamber with pop ups, Holley Strip Dominator intake manifold,
800 to 850 CFM carb (or better yet a HP series Holley or C&S), and 0.600" lift or so solid lifter
cam (240 degrees or so, 108 lobe centers), 1 7/8" headers. Low end response will suffer unless
you stroke it or run an independent runner manifold. Dan Jones
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25052
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: MAY 99
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posted 10-02-2000 06:34 PM
450 with a 351C is not too tall of an order as Dan says. They made an honest 300+ from the factory with an Autolite carb and a pretty inefficiant cast iron intake manifold. (by todays aftermarket standards)They love really big cams and carbs. Real quick, .060 over 10.5 to one flat tops, balance job, .600 + lift solid camshaft and kit, a nice valve job to some closed chamber heads. Edelbrock intake and an 850 Holley carb. Headers, and no accessories should do the trick.  Alex------------------
Alex Denysenko Co-Administrator and Moderator
Fleet of FoMoCo's too long to list!
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66351stang
Gearhead Posts: 711
From: sayville,newyork
Registered: JUL 2000
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posted 10-02-2000 07:37 PM
CORRECT IF I AM WRONG,450HP THE CHEAP WAY
STROKER KIT?,HEAD,S?MANIFOLD,? DOESN'T SEEM TO CHEAP TO ME. I GUESS IT ALL DEPEND'S ON EVRYONE'S VERSION OF CHEAP  .YOU CAN BUILD ANY KIND OF HORSE POWER YOU WANT,IT ALL
DEPEND'S ON THE BANK ACCOUNT. PLUS LET NOT FORGET THE COST OF MACHINE WORK..
MAYBE I AM OFF BASE
HAVE A GREAT DAY
LET ME KNOW WHICH WAY YOU GO------------------
ponycar66,have you flown in a ford latley???????
66-COUPE W/351SVO
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Boss66
Gearhead Posts: 167
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: FEB 2000
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posted 10-02-2000 08:01 PM
66351Stang,
You're right nothing fast is too cheap, but the beautiful thing about a C is that the stock heads have so much potential. I just can't decide if I want to use my current block. It has 4bolt mains which is nice, but it has two cylinders sleeved. I'm leaning toward buying a Coast High 393 shortblock but then we would be talking big bucks $3000. Does anyone have any experience with Coast High? or is there is better source for a shortblock?Later, Boss66
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jkilroy
Gearhead Posts: 1808
From: Vicksburg, MS
Registered: DEC 99
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posted 10-03-2000 11:05 AM
You can't beat cubes! (Or was that pubes?) Stroke that baby. The bigger the motor the less cam you will need so it will be more driveable and not as hard on valvetrain parts. I don't know about you but a .600+ lift cam on a small block of any kind is pretty stout. You will need equally stout springs which leads to all sorts of long term problems. Personally I would look at a stroked Windsor in the 420 cubic inch range and you could get that power easy.------------------
Jay Kilroy
68' Fastback GT 390
"No such thing as a cam thats too big"
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66351stang
Gearhead Posts: 711
From: sayville,newyork
Registered: JUL 2000
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posted 10-03-2000 03:35 PM
WHAT YEAR CLEVELAND IS YOUR MOTOR WITH 4 BOLT MAIN'S???? 71 BOSS 351 HAD 4 BOLT MAIN'S
ALL THE MOTOR'S I HAVE BUILT, AND RACED I NEVER HAD A 4 BOLT MAIN MOTOR, AND NEVER HAD
ANY PROBLEM'S WITH TH LOWER HALF..
C- ALTERED,ECONO RAIL,BRACKET 1,2HA,NOW I AM SHOWING MY AGE :O..------------------
ponycar66,have you flown in a ford latley???????
66-COUPE W/351SVO
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Daniel Jones
Gearhead Posts: 790
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: AUG 99
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posted 10-03-2000 04:57 PM
>Real quick, .060 over 10.5 to one flat tops0.060" over will help breathing with the big 2.19" intake valves but you'll need to sonic
test the block to see if you have enough wall thickness. 0.030" is safer with the thin
wall casting. >Edelbrock intake and an 850 Holley carb. Which Edelbrock intake? The only 351C-4V intakes Edelbrock currently makes are the Performer
and the Torker. They used to make the Scorpion which appears to be a tall version of the Torker.
Anyone ever run one of those? How'd it work out? Unfortunately, no Victor Jr's for the 351C but
there is the Victor AH-II which might work. It's really for C302B heads on a 9.2" deck height SVO
block (has a waterneck and a lip for either C or W end seals) but it should bolt up to a 351C
block. The intake ports are smaller than a 4V but that might not be a bad thing. There are similar
SVO intakes, with and with out waternecks, that should work as well but they are no longer in
production. The usual drag race favorite is the Holley Strip Dominator but it is also no longer in
production. Several guys in the club have tested the Torker, Blue Thunder, and Strip Dominator
and the Strip Dominator was the best horsepower intake, followed by the Blue Thunder. A friend and I plan to test several intakes on his Mach 1, after he replaces his ailing FMX with a
C4. He's currently running a Performer on his his 351C (Comp 280 cam, TRW flat tops, quench
heads) but feels the intake is holding him back. Plans are to do back-to-back runs at the local
drag strip. We've got a lot of intakes to test and are wondering if there is anyway to minimize the
cost of the turkey pan gaskets. I suspect re-using the same gasket would be risky (vacuum or
oil leaks) though I guess we could just run with out the turkey pan until we install the final intake.
Any tips or tricks greatly appreciated. Dan Jones
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tomslo
Gearhead Posts: 319
From: Jefferson City, MO
Registered: AUG 2000
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posted 10-04-2000 10:06 AM
If you're thinking about stroking the Cleveland on a budget, a 377 might be what you are looking for. Offset grind the crank, Chevy rods, and I think it used a chevy piston as well. The write up is in a Super Ford magazine from 1993 where they dyno tested a whole slew of 351C intakes. I don't have a scanner, or I would post it for you. The article is decent and could provide you with a good ballpark idea of how to acheive a certain power level. I personally believe that the engine used was a bit off, as it only made 500 horsepower with 13:1+ compression and a cam that had duration in excess of 260@50 on the intake side.As far as reusing the turkey pan, I would have the spares with you just in case. I replaced my performer with a Blue Thunder in July and was able to reuse the intake gasket. I can't tell you how much difference the intake alone made as I redid the exhaust and swapped out the 3.70 open rear for a 3.50 posi(definitely not enough gear, and still not enough traction!) ------------------
1991 F150, 4X4, lift, 35's, 4.9l
1991 Mustang LX 5.0L, AOD
1970 Cougar, 351C-4v, C6
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25052
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: MAY 99
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posted 10-04-2000 11:49 AM
Dan, you have got to show me how you do those "quote" deals  ! AH II is the intake that I was reffering to. It works very well with the 351C 4V heads. The Holley strip dominator was a great unit (RIP). These days with block filling and new age boring techniques, sonic testing has become quite passe'. A well seasoned block that is filled will withstand a .060 overbore with no problems. You can reuse a " turkey pan gasket" several times over if you use Pam kitchen spray. Silicone the head side of the water passages and lay the pan in. Then spray the intake side with Pam liberaly. Install the intake and over torque by about 5 lbs. You can repeat this process about 5 or 6 times. The cooking spray will seal better than you think. Alex------------------
Alex Denysenko Co-Administrator and Moderator
Fleet of FoMoCo's too long to list!
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73STANG
Journeyman Posts: 76
From: Lincoln, NE
Registered: APR 2000
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posted 10-04-2000 12:19 PM
Would you have to port match the 351-AH II, or just run it with smaller ports than the 4V heads?
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25052
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: MAY 99
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posted 10-04-2000 12:45 PM
It all depends on the rest of the combination, but I would leave it as is for the most part. I have found that missmatches in the ports of 351C's seem to enhance performance on milder combinations. Alex------------------
Alex Denysenko Co-Administrator and Moderator
Fleet of FoMoCo's too long to list!
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Daniel Jones
Gearhead Posts: 790
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: AUG 99
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posted 10-04-2000 01:03 PM
>Dan, you have got to show me how you do those "quote" deals! I cheat. I just pull the post into a full screen editor, type in my
response and then paste it back. I hated typing in that little posting
window.
>AH II is the intake that I was reffering to. It works very well with the
>351C 4V heads. I suspected it would but never tried it since I don't have any hoods the
AH-II will fit under. BTW, if you are looking to purchase the AH-II, a
couple of the retailers say it is no longer available but others claim
it's just on an indefinite national back order. FWIW, Edelbrock still
lists it on their web page. The SVO intakes (A331, B351, D351) should
also work well on 4V heads but they are out of production. >The Holley strip dominator was a great unit (RIP). There are rumors Holley is going to reintroduce the Strip Dominator but
they've been around for a long time and nothing's come of it yet. Did
you happen to notice, now that Holley owns Weiand, they've renamed the
intake manifolds. The Weiand Pro Ram tunnel ram is now a *Holley* Team G,
the Xcelerator 2V/4V intakes and 351M/400 Action Plus are now *Weiand*
Stealths. Plus there's an Excelerator line of intakes not to be confused
with the former Xcelerator intakes. Ugh. >These days with block filling and new age boring techniques, sonic testing
>has become quite passe'. Ooh, tell me about the boring techniques. Can I do them with my old Van
Norman boring bar? >A well seasoned block that is filled will withstand a .060 overbore with no
>problems. Do you fill to the top for drag racing? My Clevelands are all street driven
and I've been hesitant to fill the waterjackets. Some of the circle track
guys will fill to the lower water pump bolts and a couple guys I know did
the same on street engines. The water temps stayed with in reason but oil
temps went way up and oil coolers had to be fitted. For a street/strip
type engine, can you get away with a larger overbore if you only go to the
bottom waterpump bolts or is that only recommended for a drag only engine? >You can reuse a "turkey pan gasket" several times over if you use Pam kitchen
>spray. Pam kitchen spray on the turkey pan, how appropriate :-) >Silicone the head side of the water passages and lay the pan in. Then spray the
>intake side with Pam liberaly. Install the intake and over torque by about 5 lbs.
>You can repeat this process about 5 or 6 times. The cooking spray will seal better
>than you think. Alex Cool, that'll save us some bucks. Those gaskets aren't cheap. Thanks Much,
Dan Jones
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Boss66
Gearhead Posts: 167
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: FEB 2000
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posted 10-04-2000 06:10 PM
Do you really need the turkey pan? What is the harm with not using it, especially when your just doing short term manifold test?Boss66
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Daniel Jones
Gearhead Posts: 790
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: AUG 99
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posted 10-04-2000 06:21 PM
Running without the turkey pan is bad for the oil. It protects the oil
from splashing on the carb heat passage and turning to ash. In a short
term test, that shouldn't be a big deal. Of course, it's a non-problem if you've blocked the head ports or the intake
doesn't have a carb passage. The Holley Strip Dominator, Victor AH-II, and
all the Motorsport high port intakes do not have that passage but most of the
street oriented intakes do. Dan Jones
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25052
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: MAY 99
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posted 10-04-2000 08:20 PM
I'll answer this one in detail tomorrow. One thing thta I will mention tonigh is that we fill almost all of our high performance engines, street and strip or full competition. The amount that we fill them differes of course. We have had zero ill effects doing this. Everything has been positive. Block and ring life has increased dramaticly. Alex------------------
Alex Denysenko Co-Administrator and Moderator
Fleet of FoMoCo's too long to list!
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Nos351C
Gearhead Posts: 3000
From: Rohnert Park, CA USA M&M member#591
Registered: JUL 2000
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posted 10-04-2000 08:46 PM
Which filler do you use Alex?------------------
Marcus
Fast, Reliable, Cheap.... Pick any TWO of these words.
68 Mustang, still in purgatory.
BOYCOTT EXCESSIVE MOTORSPORTS
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25052
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: MAY 99
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posted 10-05-2000 11:21 AM
Dan and Marcus, I use the Hard Block brand of filler. Edelbrock intake is available direct from them to racing registered teams. It is a precision production casting and is made in small quantities. Holley is going to reintroduce the Strip dominator as soon as they can climb out of their 200 million dollar debt. Yes, it's true, Holley is in some serious financial trouble and the banks are in too deep to forclose now so they just have to ride out the storm. Your old Van Norman bar is better suited to stock rebuilding work as it is so obsolete that it actually will hurt the performance of a race engine. The new trend in performance machining has been is use for about 4 years now. It is "precision machining" using CNC digitized equipment. The new boring machines have the SAE crankpin to bore centerline specifications and will center the bores perfect. Also the techniques remove material slower and in lesser amounts. This creates less heat and bore distortion. Also, they do not have to be reinstalled for each cylinder as they have programs for all of the race or domestic V-8 blocks. The machine recenters itself over each cylinder automaticly. The operator just has to turn the block around to the other side and them reset the correct program and desired bore size. We are also using very fine finish bores. Almost glass like. With todays low drag piston rings this is possible. We fill street performance engines about 1/3 of the way down with Hard Block. Race only engines 2/3's of the block is filled. I hope this answers your questions well enough Dan. Alex------------------
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Fleet of FoMoCo's too long to list!
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Nos351C
Gearhead Posts: 3000
From: Rohnert Park, CA USA M&M member#591
Registered: JUL 2000
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posted 10-05-2000 01:59 PM
One more Alex
any problems with hard block and longevity? I am thinking on the terms of year, say 5-10?------------------
Marcus
Fast, Reliable, Cheap.... Pick any TWO of these words.
68 Mustang, still in purgatory.
BOYCOTT EXCESSIVE MOTORSPORTS
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CRB
Gearhead Posts: 119
From: Raritan NJ
Registered: JUL 2000
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posted 10-05-2000 02:07 PM
what is the benifit of filling the block and what is the downside?thanks
chip
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Nos351C
Gearhead Posts: 3000
From: Rohnert Park, CA USA M&M member#591
Registered: JUL 2000
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posted 10-05-2000 02:20 PM
Chip as I understand it (I am sure if there is more Alex will correct me)
It helps strengthen the bottom of the bores and main webbing of the block. Ithelps make sure the bores don't distort under heavy pressure. That would help promote ring seal and lead to more power, as well as better longevity as the bores are more likely to crack if they distort too much.
Downsides can be higher water and oil temps.
An oil cooler nad more radiator surface area would help those. As Alex said above, some filled blocks don't have those problems.
HTH------------------
Marcus
Fast, Reliable, Cheap.... Pick any TWO of these words.
68 Mustang, still in purgatory.
BOYCOTT EXCESSIVE MOTORSPORTS
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25052
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: MAY 99
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posted 10-05-2000 02:33 PM
I have filled blocks that are 10 years old. No long term ill effects that I have ever been aware of. Filling the block stabilizes the cylinders and keeps them from distorting while boring and especially during operation. It allows the pistons to go up and down the way that they were intended. If the bores are perfectly straight the pistons have less friction and the engine makes more power. It also helps to keep the heat in the cylinders where it belongs. Alex------------------
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Daniel Jones
Gearhead Posts: 790
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: AUG 99
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posted 10-07-2000 08:43 PM
>Holley is going to reintroduce the Strip dominator as soon as they can
>climb out of their 200 million dollar debt. Yes, it's true, Holley is
>in some serious financial trouble and the banks are in too deep to
>forclose now so they just have to ride out the storm. I'd heard the rumors about Holley. They sure went on a buying spree.
Seems like they were trying to gear up to compete against Edelbrock. >I hope this answers your questions well enough Dan. Yup, that should do it. Thanks. I have several standard bore 351C blocks
to choose from for the foundation of my next engine. I was going to sonic
test to find the best one then Hard Blok the lower portion. I'm shooting
for a 500 HP *street* engine. The induction will consist of a set of A3 or
C302B Motorsport high port aluminum canted valve heads with matching intake
(A331 or B351 most likely). Valve size 2.15"/1.65" (maybe 1.71" if I use
the A3's). Not sure on carb size. Compression around 11:1 and I'm leaning
towards something like the Comp 294S cam (0.605 lift, 248 degrees @ 0.050",
110 LSA). Stroke will be between 3.85" and 4.00". A 4" stroke with 6.0"
rod in a 9.2" deck leaves 1.2" for the pin height. Bore will be whatever
is required to clean up the clinders (want to leave room for rebuilds).
Headers will likely be 1 7/8" diameter (possibly 2") leading to a 3"
collector and 3" tailpipes if I can make them fit. Any feedback on the
combo appreciated. Car (Pantera) weighs around 3200 lbs, has 4.22:1 ring
and pinion with ZF 5 speed (3000 rpm at 80 MPH in 5th). Thanks Much,
Dan Jones
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Boss66
Gearhead Posts: 167
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: FEB 2000
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posted 10-07-2000 10:04 PM
Dan,
Isn't 11:1 compression too much for a street car? What would you do for gas? I think your combo sounds great. Have you seen the latest Mustangs and Fast Fords? They take the new 392w crate and swap in a solid roller cam and port the Gt-40X heads to yield 500hp. Given this, it seems a 393c with some work on a set of 4v heads and a similar cam would get similar results. I think I'd better start stiffening my car with all this talk of 500hp in the air.
What do you think of the 351w/427? Would this be too much stroke? What sort of rpm could a 427 handle?
The only problem I see with most of these ideas is the need for loads of money. I'm going to have to get my wife another job to pay for all these ideas you have put in my head.
Later, Boss66
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25052
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: MAY 99
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posted 10-09-2000 04:16 PM
I will comment a little later on your choices Dan. Boss, FYI the late model LS-1 GM engines have 11.5 to 1 compression. There is no such thing as TOO HIGH comression for the street. The camshaft will dictate the amout of cylinder pressure anyway. Alex------------------
Alex Denysenko Co-Administrator and Moderator
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Alex
Gearhead Posts: 148
From: Melbourne, Vic, Australia
Registered: JUN 99
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posted 10-09-2000 10:39 PM
Interesting question. I've read in a couple of places that increasing the compression increases the hp by 3 % per full point, ie 9:1 to 10:1 etc. That seems very little, and not really worth the bother of more expensive fuels, octane boosters etc. It must be more than 3 % ?????How much detonation resistance do quench chambers, polished chambers, lower engine temp etc give? What is the best method to determine the actual effective compression? Compression guage? Ahhh, questions questions! Alex
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25052
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: MAY 99
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posted 10-10-2000 01:13 PM
There is a specific formula for determining compression ratio. You will need the deck height, combustion chamber cc's, head gasket thickness, and piston volume to figure it out. Alex------------------
Alex Denysenko Co-Administrator and Moderator
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