posted 09-16-2000 07:37 PM         

In a hydraulic with your combo, I'd opt between 224/234 (at 0.050) and 234/244. I don't know how heavy your car is, but if it weighs the same as an early mustang, the rear might be a bit low for the longer duration cam.

posted 09-19-2000 12:47 PM         

Neat car. I know the Fidia and Lele had 351C's, did the last Grifo's
also get them? I've got a 351-powered Italian car, a Pantera. Seeing
that you're in the U.K., you may want to contact the Detomaso Driver's
club. They should have experience in obtaining Cleveland parts.

>I need to re-build it due to a dropped valve.

Another victim! A well known OEM problem. Check the archives for 351C
building tips.

>The block has been re-bored but that's as far as I have gone.

Be careful on overbore. Greater than 0.030" not recommended without
sonic check.

>The rear end is a 3.31 LSD on a de-dion setup the trans is a C6 and the
>wheel diam is 26.25 inch. weight is 3400 lbs.

ZF five speed or C6 automatic? Both will have a relatively tall
first gear. ZF's in Panteras run a 4.00 or 4.22:1 final drive,
typically.

>I plan to go for forged pistons and a solid roller cam, what I don't know is
>how much cam.

Which forged pistons? There's a great difference in thermal expansion
and some can be noisy on start up. Solid roller cams are expensive and
given your desires, your money might be better spent elsewhere (maybe a
nice stroker kit).

>The intake I have is a Blue Thunder with a 750 holley. The heads
>will be milled for adjustable rockers etc.

Good intake but relatively tall. Verify you have clearance. Run roller
rockers and consider switching to closed chamber heads which will allow
higher compression with the same octane.

>You might also want to consider stroking the motor to 377 or 393. That's the path
>I'm heading down.

Can go even larger using 400 crank. Can offset grind stock crank to 3.7" or
3.75", use 3.85" SCAT crank, or 4" stroke 400 crank.

>Comp Cams is my choice, but I like the hyd retro roller for a street application.

Hydraulic roller lifters are heavy and limit rpm. They start falling off after
6000 rpm with the heavy Cleveland valves. Also, roller cams require compatible
cam gears (bronze or steel).

Cam specs will depend on the rest of the combination. Will you be running
headers?

>Hi guys and thanks for the replies, The car will be used on the street with
>perhaps a couple of trips down the strip just to see what it can do. I would
>like to aim for 12's on the strip but that would be it. I am more interested
>in building a very resposive engine that can rev safely to 6500.

A number of ways to go but need more info.

>I have read books like Ford Performance by Pat Ganahl, and Ford V8 engines by
>Tom Monroe. but I have found that the area around the CAM is very very grey.

The Ford Performance book is very outdated.

>I also have the later 4V heads fitted with the 2V valves. Some say better for a
>street car some say fit the bigger valves. I understand that the 2v flows more
>air at lower lifts etc but I can't find any flow info for the 4v head with the
>2V valves.

You're already paying the flow velocity price with the large ports. Running
smaller valves will be of marginal utility.

>The differential in the car is the same as in E type Jaguar, and I have two to
>choose from, one is the 3.31 the other is a 2.77 and I am hoping to get something
>around a 4.0 to play with. as you can see I have a lot of questions that i need
>to answer. I very much appreciate the help you guys with the experience can give.
>thanks vic

4.0 would be good, assuming you have overdrive.

>I have read that 2v heads with 4v valves are a good setup.

I'm not so sure. The best flow numbers I've seen for 2V heads was using
2V valves. The larger 4V valve hurts the short side turn. If you want to
run 2V valves, do so in 2V heads, preferably of the Aussie closed chamber
variety.

posted 09-20-2000 04:53 PM         

Since the valve head came off the block has been bored but not yet finished because the pistons have not yet been chosen. I was considering the TWR flat tops and a little head work to push the compression to around 9.5. Anyone any comments on best way to achieve this. Car will be fitted with custom headers an a "H" pipe but being right hand drive space is tight. Therte is a large ATE servo and ZF power steering in the way. Heads are getting the screw in studs and the roller rockers. Last night I contacted Cam Research and they recommended a flat tappet at 226-235 @0.5 lift on a lobe sep of 111 deg. Lift was .540 and .560 a grind CRZ 91 TL

posted 09-21-2000 06:39 PM         

I just cut and paste between the posting window. I cut the original
message, edit in whatever full-screen editor is convenient, then paste
the reply back.

>So I hope you don't mind if I send you this email with all the info I have
>in it.

No problem.

>All Iso's from 71 including the series two Grifo had the cleveland engine. I
>have a Fidia and a Lele and hope to get a Grifo at some time in the future
>but a typical price for one not too far gone would be $30,000.

Is the Series II Grifo the one with the hooded headlights, like the red
one on the cover of the Iso and Bizzarini Gold Portfolio book?

>Both the cars have the front wishbone type suspension and the de-dion rear
>with girling disks all round. Wheel diam is 26.25 inch. The front callipers
>are the same as on Pantera's from the same period. Both cars have the C6
>auto trans and a 3.31 LSD, as I said in the earlier post I have a 2.77 and I
>hope to get a 3.7-4.10 at a later date just to swop and see how they go. I
>also bought last year, an AOD out of a V8 Thunderbird because of the
>overdrive. I will try and fit this in one of the cars in the future to see
>if I can improve the gas mileage on trips.

I did an AOD swap in a Mustang and summarized it in a post that's in the
archives (https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Archives.html). The cars are
different but perhaps the issues will be the same.

>The main plan is to re-build the engine to rev to 7000 safely and then fit a
>limiter set at 6500. I will be changing the water pump for probably a Wiend
>aluminium one and the oil pump for a sealed power high volume one.

If you go with a high volume pump, increase the oil pan capacity, especially
if you plan on road racing. High volume pumps pump a lot of oil to the top
end of Clevelands and running th pan dry is a bad thing. Also, a stock pump
with a higher relief pressure spring will give you the higher volume at higher
revs when you need it most.

>As I said in the post to the site the engine has been bored just under 30 to
>allow for the final finish when the choice of piston has been made. I would
>be interested to see what recommendations are made for a choice of forged
>piston.

I haven't found any low cost, off-the-shelf, low thermal expansion, forged
pistons. The basic choices for 351C performance pistons are Keith Black
hypereutectic, TRW forged (high expansion), and custom pistons from a variety
of sources. The TRW L2379F flat tops pistons are strong but have a fairly
high thermal expansion. I used a set when I built the Cleveland for one of
my Mustangs. The clearance numbers provided with the pistons were incorrect
but luckily we caught the problem before ***embling the engine. With forged
pistons, we boil one in a pan of water and check to see if it will slide into
a cold, honed, block. It didn't so we got on the phone to our piston vendor
who verified the numbers were wrong. We honed it to the new numbers and it
p***ed the boil test. There's a little slap when cold but it goes away when
cold. Interestingly enough, TRW used to have a note in their catalog that
the L2379F pistons were not recommended for use in Pantera engines (due to
piston slap at cruise rpm as I recall) but later the note was dropped.
Perhaps they changed the metallurgy (add more silicon) to control expansion?
The pistons in my Dad's 427 side-oiler stroker are also high growth but much
louder. I've never personally used them but several friends have and like
the Keith Black hypers. They have tight clearances and are quiet but I expect
they would be more brittle than a high growth forged piston. You can go with
custom forged pistons in low or high thermal expansion alloys but the cost is
high (2 to 3 times an off the shelf TRW or KB). If you go to the expense of
custom pistons, you're half way to the cost of an offset ground stroker kit
(stock crank offset ground to 3.7 or 3.75" stroke, use a 6" Chevy rod and have
the piston pin height adjusted so the stack heght works out to 9.195" or so).

>I will have the standard rods re-worked and fit all new bolts etc.
>For this re-build I want to retain the stock heads to see what I can get out
>of them, but when I strip the second engine I may be more daring with the
>spec. I would like to try and get 9.5 compression out of the heads with the
>forged pistons and a little head work. I will be fitting a new Cloyes chain
>and gears and doing all the typical re-build things.

TRW and KB also have off-the-shelf pistons with a small dome that will bump
up the compression to around 10:1 with open chamber heads. Stick with flat
tops if you're entertaining switching to quench heads in the future. If not,
you might consider the small dome pistons. You may have to do some spark curve
tailoring (recommennd a muli-strike unit like MSD with open chamber heads) to
keep it from pinging though.

>As I said in the post to the site I have contacted Cam
>research and they recommended a flat tappet cam with the following specs 226
>deg inlet 235 deg exhaust @0.5 lift, lobe sep was 111 deg. Lift was 0.540
>and 0.560.

At least one Pantera list member is running that cam with open chamber 4V
heads. I'll make a post to see what the power band is. It might be a bit
soft on the bottom, given your gearing, so you might want to run a rapid
leak down lifter like Rhoades. Downside is the noise but Crane and Crower
have versions which are supposed to be quieter.

>I will be fitting headers but space is tight due to the ATE brake
>servo and the ZF power steering. Finally can you recommend any later
>publications to the Ford Performance book I have. Thanks for taking the
>time to read this.

There's really no good books on the Cleveland. I've got a couple of 3"
binders full of Cleveland magazine articles, club newsletters, friend's
dyno tests, etc. Lots of misinformation mixed in that I've trying to filter
out. Someday I'll ***emble it all and put together a Cleveland web page
but progress has been slow (too much overtime).