posted 09-12-2000 12:50 PM            

4V quench heads with one-piece SS valves and hardened seats, minor exhaust porting, roller rockers, dual springs with damper.
Blue Thunder high rise dual plane with holley 750 vac sec.
Cam Research 224/234 at 0.050 with about 0.6" lift at 110 LSA (too small, going to probably go with a roller with longer duration).
TRW flat top forged pistons, stock rods and crank (probabaly going to swap these for a 393 ci stroker kit).

That's it in a nutshell. I'm building a motor that will be streetable, but still move like lightning when I put the pedal down. I'm not building a cruiser.

posted 09-12-2000 04:28 PM            

hth

posted 09-12-2000 05:38 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nos351C:
If you got the $$ I would definitely do a stall convertor also, nothing radical, just a mild one, that matches the cam. The one I added to mine really woke up my old 302 even though the cam I was using in theory didn't need one..
Home grown combo's are good. I would recommend before shelling out the $$ to pick up a copy desktop dyno 2K. It's not perfect, but as long as you input the right numbers, you can see how different parts ( cams especially) will affect where your paower curve is. You can geta feel for it on my web page, as I did a lot of this type of thing preparing my combo. (http://www.geocities.com/fordracing68)If you (or anyone else) has DD2K, I have many of the popular cam files on my page available for downlaod also...
I don't think the numbers are totally accurate, but I have seen combo's where they are close (+/- 15HP)

hth

---

Nos, where can I pickup DD2K??? Also, you are saying a mild TC, you mean like 2500 or so stall? What is mild?

posted 09-12-2000 06:42 PM            

Check out the deal Powerheads has on these heads.
http://www.powerheads.com/head4.htm

I'm tempted to trade my modified 4V heads for these!

------------------
SteveLaRiviere/Administrator
MCA # 47773
'72 Mustang Sprint 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac-Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC/CD4E

posted 09-12-2000 06:48 PM            

and then come back with some more specific questions.

With your budget and desire for low end torque, go with a stroker.
You can offset grind the 351C crank to 3.7" stroke, run 6" Chevy rods,
and a custom piston for 377 cubes or so (depending on overbore). Next
step up is a similar stroker using the 3.85" SCAT stroker crank for 393
cubes or so. There are also kits using the 400 crank. A club member
has one with nothing exotic that makes 423 RWHP.

With the big cubes, I'd go with 4V quench heads or ported Aussie 2V's.
There are aluminum canted valve heads but they require matching high port
intakes and headers, due to revised port locations. For pics and some info,
see: http://www.PanteraPlace.com/page35.htm

Also, blue thunder's new heads are out, though the first batch is sold out.
Requires a Yates intake but takes standard Cleveland valve gear. Stuffed 4V
or Yates exhaust are optional.

posted 09-13-2000 10:15 AM         

------------------
Dwayne

'94 Lightning
'70 Mach1
'69 Cyclone Spoiler II
'65 Galaxie 500 + parts car

posted 09-13-2000 10:57 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thud:
I have a '70 351C 0.030 over, 2v open heads, Edelbrock Performer intake, Holley 750, 9.5-1 compression, balanced, Mallory Unilite distributor, Crane roller-rockers, and a Reed CH288DP cam (intake: .514"; 227 deg. @ 0.50", exhaust: .541" deg. @ .050").
381HP, 415LB-FT. Nice torque curve, too. Nothing extraordinary was done.

---

posted 09-13-2000 12:37 PM         

------------------
Dwayne

posted 09-13-2000 01:35 PM         

This is a moderate/low-dollar build. There's lots more to be had, but this one will serve its purpose well for daily driving.

------------------
Dwayne

'94 Lightning
'70 Mach1
'69 Cyclone Spoiler II
'65 Galaxie 500 + parts car

posted 09-13-2000 11:36 PM            

Here are some notes relating to the general specs of an engine.

Block: For most purposes, the stock block is OK as long as you don't over bore more than .030. If you plan on High HP or high RPM, then the cast cleveland block is junk as it will flex too much and can break. Two bolt blocks are just as strong as 4 bolt blocks. Simply install High strength main cap bolts or studs.

Crank: The stock cleveland crank is very strong. It only needs replaced when one gets crazy. Minor work such as done to any crank is always beneficial.

Rods: Stock rods are ok for most engines as long as the rod bolts are
replaced. Use forged rods for high HP applications or high RPM.

Pistons: Cast pistons should not be used in an engine that will be driven hard often or taken over 6000 RPM. They just can't hold up and literally get pulled apart. Try to avoid forged pistons that have a high "grow" alloy as they will require you to warm up the engine before driving and will cause accelerated cylinder wear.

Intakes: I have just given examples of the type of intake to use. You can use any intake of a similar design and performance level.

Cam parts. I prefer cams which have different intake and exhaust durations. They seem to have a better power curve overall than a cams with the same profiles. I prefer Crower or Crane cams as I feel they have the most research behind their product. Some other manufcatures make good racing profiles but not good street profiles. Always use springs matched for the cam and install new lifters with a new cam. Bleed down lifters can be used if desired but will make the engine noisy to some extent.

Heads: The cleveland 4V head is a good part. It has been proven with modifications, it makes more HP than even the new Motorsport heads. If you want to extact every little bit of power, then you should machine the heads for rocker studs and guide plates and use roller rockers. Remember that when using guide plates, you must use hardened push rods or the guide plate will cut the pushrod in half. It is always a good idea to use some type of 1 piece valve.

Carbs. I prefer running a Carter/Eddlebrock carb for a street car up to engine 4 and use a Holley for Engine 4 and above. Holleys make better upper end power, but the Carter is more driveable and will get better mileage. The new Eddlebrock is an improved design of the old Carter AFB. Always run a large size fuel filter and good fuel pump. It is not good to run out of fuel at 6000 rpm. Never undersize your air filter.

Exhaust. Any engine can always use large exhaust, but don't go too big with the header primary tube size or HP may be lost.

Ingniton: I like electronic my self, but a good dual point and coil will work up to a point. I have used the Ford Duarspark with good success and reliability. Nice thing about it is you can get replacement parts almost any where. For high performance, you might condider the MSD stuff.

There is a lot of stuff I have left out like water pump, bolts, small details like champhering oil drain back holes, gaskets, etc.

Combo 1 -- Basically stock
Stock low compression engine with stock cam. Good idea to install new roller timing chain for timing accuracy. When installing the new timing chain, advance cam timing by 4 degrees to improve power. Aftermarket 600 cfm carb with modified adaptor plate to fit spread bore intake of open adaptor.
Stock Fuel pump
Stock ignition
Stock exhaust
Idle: smooth
RPM range: Idle to 5000
HP: 260 - 290
Highway economy: 17 to 20

Combo 2 -- Hot stock
Stock compression and cam. Roller timing chain with cam advanced 4 degrees. Performer intake. with 650 CFM carb. Use 4 hole spacer plate of 1/2 inch phenolic for heat isolation.
Milodon low profile 14 inch air filter to fit under screen.
Stock Fuel pump
Dual point or electronic ignition with high performance coil
1 3/4 inch headers
Idle: Smooth
RPM range: Idle to 5500
HP: 290 - 320
Highway economy: 17 to 20

Combo 3 -- Mild
Increase compression 9:1 to 9.8:1 with flat tops and open chamber heads.
Cam duration of 210 to 220 at .050 lift with valve springs to match.
Roller timing chain.
One piece SS valves.
Roller timing chain
Cross drill and chamfer crank. High performance rod bolts.
Performer or FPP dual plane intake with 650 to 700 CFM Carb. Use 4 hole phenolic plate of 1/2 inch for heat isolation.
Milodon Low profile 14 inch air filter to fit under screen.
High volume oil pump.
High flow Mechanical fuel pump. Minimum 3/8 fuel line.
High performance dual point or High performance electronic with HP coil.
1 3/4 inch headers with high flow mufflers.
Idle: Noticeable
RPM range: 1800 to 6200
HP: 320 - 380
Highway economy: 15 to 19

***Note, Combo 3 was my first engine build with the exception of the valves and fuel pump. It would pull hard at 150 MPH, Smoke the tires right off the car, and take any Mustang or Camaro that was not modified strictly for racing and this includes some with Nitrous. I never took the car all the way out, but I feel it would of ran 175. I did have it to 160 but since I did not add the fuel pump, I was running out of fuel flow at 6000 RPM.

Combo 4 -- Hot
Increase compression 9.8 to 11:1
Cam duration of 220 to 230 degrees at .050 lift with springs to match.
Roller timing chain
Modify heads to accept roller rockers and guide plates. 3 angle valve job. One piece SS valves.
Mildly clean up cylinder head port areas around valve pocket area.
Cross drill and chamfer crank. High performance Rod bolts, shot peen rods or forged rods. and balance.
FPP dual plane intake or Eddlebrock Torker or Holley Strip dominator intake
750 to 800 CFM carb with open hole 1/2 inch spacer.
Any air cleaner with at least the equivelent area of a 14 inch by 3 inch element.
High Volume Oil pump with Chrome molly oil pump drive rod.
Extra volume oil pan.
High flow mechanical fuel pump or electric pump with regulator. Minimum 3/8 fuel line.
High performance electronic ignition with HP coil
1 7/8 headers
Idle: Very noticeable
RPM range: 2500 to 7000
HP: 380 to 460
Highway econemy: 12 to 15

Combo 5 -- Wild Note: The Cleveland block may not last long with this combo.
Increase Compression 11 to 12.5:1
Cam duration 230 to 245 degrees at .050 lift mechanical or roller cam with springs to match. Timing gears
Modify heads to accept roller rockers and guide plates, 3 angle valve job, one piece SS valves, new guides.
Clean up valve are of head, smooth combustion chamber area, clean up port area around valve stem, smooth ports, possible fill of bottom of intake and exhaust ports with intake and header mods to match.
Cross drill and champher crank or use steel crank. Optional increase stroke.
Forged steel rods.
Lightened flywheel. Aftermarket harmonic balencer.
Eddlebrock Torker or Victor Jr or Holley Strip dominator or equivelent single plane intake.
800 to 900 CFM carb with 1 inch spacer.
Any air cleaner with at least the equivelant area of a 14 by 4 inch element of KN high flow type.
High Volume Oil pump with Chrome molly oil pump drive rod.
Extra volume oil pan.
Reduced cranke pulley size and/or increase WP and alternator pulley sizes.
Electric pump with regulator. Minimum 3/8 fuel line.
High performance electronic ignition with HP coil
2 inch headers
Idle: rough
RPM range: 3500 to 8000
HP: 460 to 580
Highway mileage: 8 to 12


Combo 6 -- Ludicrous (Nascar Engine)
Increase compression to 12.5 to 15:1
Cam duration 245 to 260+ degrees at .050 lift roller profile with springs to match.
Timing gears
Radical modification to stock heads including combo 5 and machining off exhaust ports and installing high port adaptor plates or aftermarket heads.
Titanium valves and retainers. larger pushrods.
Forged or billet steel crank with increased stroke to 3.9 inches.
Titainium rods.
Cast or Aluminum aftermarket block.
Aluminum flywheel with multiple disk small diameter clutch.
Aftermarket balancer.
Eddlebrock Victor intake or equivelant or tunnel ram with dual carburators.
900 to 1100 CFM carburator of dual 650 cfm carburators on tunnel ram.
Any air cleaner of KN type with equivelant area of a 14 by 6 inch element or no air cleaner at all. Dry sump oiling system.
High pressure/flow Electric pump with regulator.
Minimum 1/2 fuel line.
Race performance electronic ignition, or magneto, or crank triggered electronic ignition with race coil.
Electric water pump.
Crank pulley and Alternator pulley the same size.
2 1/4 inch headers
Idle: IT WONT!!
RPM range: 4500 to 9500 HP: 600 to 800
Highway mileage: Like you care
******Note: A local machine shop has built one of these combo 6 engines using all the Ford goodies. On Methonal it dynoed at 788 HP at 8200 RPM

Combo 7 -- Blower motor Note, Cleveland Block may not live long at higher HP levels. Lower compression to 7.5 to 8.5:1
Cam duration any thing you want.
Mild valve area porting.
Stainless steel valves.
Modify heads for roller rockers and guide plates if using cam over 230 degrees duration or if turning over 6500 rpm.
Cross drilled and chamfered crank or steel crank.
Reworked stock rods if boost under 10 psi, forged rods for boost over 10 psi. or 6500 rpm.
750 to 1100 CFM carb or dual 650 cfm carbs.
Any air filter with equivelant area of a 14 by 4 inch element.
Electric fuel pump with minimum 3/8 fuel line.
High performance electronic ignition and coil.
1 3/4 or larger headers
Idle: depends on cam.
RPM range: Usually from 1500 to 6500
HP 450 to 800 depending on boost.
Highway mileage: 12 to 16

Combo 8 -- Twin turbo Note, Cleveland Block may not live long with higher HP levels.
Lower compression to 7 to 8 :1
Cam duation special grind for turbos.
Mild valve area porting.
Stainless Steel valves a must.
Modify heads for roller rockers and guide plates if turing over 6500 rpm.
Cross drilled and chanfered crank or steel crank.
Reworked stock rods if boost under 10 psi, forged rods for boost over 10 psi or 6500 rpm. Intercoolers or water injection recomended for over 10 psi boost.
Two TO-4 turbos with .69 AR "P" trim turbine and H trim compressor.
Waste gates or blow off valve fabricated into intake.
Special headers for turbo.
Three inch exhaust after turbo.
Dual plane intake modified for port EFI or use 900 CFM throttle body EFI assembly.
EFI fuel pump and hose.
Clamp on air filters for turbo inlets of at least 4 inches diameter and 6 inches long.
High performance electronic ignition and coil.
Idle: Near stock
RPM range: 1500 to 6500 with incredable kick at 3000
HP: 500 to 1000 depending on boost.
Highway Mileage: 20 +

Well, those are my opinions. If you follow my recommendations here, you wont be sorry and will have a good running engine. Remember that the higher the HP you make without the aid of a blower or turbos, the less low rpm driving power you will have.

Happy engine building.

posted 09-14-2000 11:47 AM            

------------------
Marcus
Fast, Reliable, Cheap.... Pick any TWO of these words.
68 Mustang, still in purgatory.
BOYCOTT EXCESSIVE MOTORSPORTS

posted 09-14-2000 03:21 PM         

Anyway:

The dyno sheet for my 351C only shows 3500 to 6000 RPM; but it has 410.3LB-FT at 3500 and doesn't drop below 400 until 4650 RPM, with a peak of 414.6 @ 3600 RPM. It still has 363.7 @ 5500 when it begins to drop off (the Performer intake advertises idle to 5500 as its band, I believe them!). HP is 275.8 at 3500, rising to 381.7 @ 5400. HP starts to fall off after 5500 but still is over 350 at 6000 RPM.

------------------
Dwayne

posted 09-14-2000 08:35 PM            

That's Dave Doddeck and it was a post from Pantera email list. Dave runs
a twin turbo 351C-powered Pantera.

I'll make a few comments as appropriate...

>Block: For most purposes, the stock block is OK as long as you don't over
>bore more than .030. If you plan on High HP or high RPM, then the cast
>cleveland block is junk as it will flex too much and can break.

Lots of Panteras running around with Cleveland-based strokers in the
450 to 500 HP range and block strength doesn't seem to be a problem
as long as you start with a good core (minimal core shift) and keep
overbore to a minumum.

When the power and rpm levels get serious, you may want to consider
filling the lower portion (up to the lower water pump bolts or core
plugs) of the water jacket with hard block. Coolant temps should be
okay but oil temps may increase so an oil cooler (thermostatically
controlled) would be wise.

>Crank: The stock cleveland crank is very strong. It only needs replaced
>when one gets crazy.

Yes, even when offset ground for increased stroke.

>Pistons: Cast pistons should not be used in an engine that will be driven hard
>often or taken over 6000 RPM. They just can't hold up and literally get pulled
>apart. Try to avoid forged pistons that have a high "grow" alloy as they will
>require you to warm up the engine before driving and will cause accelerated
>cylinder wear.

A friend did an experiment with pistons. He was breaking up a bunch of old
pistons to melt so he could pour an aluminum mold. Cast pistons would
crack apart with a sledge hammer blow, as would high silicon content forged
pistons. The low silicon content pistons, the ones that have the high thermal
expansion, would not. Reguardless, aluminum melts at the same temp, cast, hyper,
or forged.

>Intakes: I have just given examples of the type of intake to use. You can use
>any intake of a similar design and performance level.

My experience and that of several others in the club, is that intakes of
a similar design can provide vastly different performance. Though both
are big port 4V single plane intakes, the Strip Dominator is a much
better intake than the Torker, which is often outperformed by the lowly
Performer.

>Cam parts. I prefer cams which have different intake and exhaust durations.
>They seem to have a better power curve overall than a cams with the same profiles.

Dave's implicit baseline is an open chamber 4V with cast iron spreadbore,
and CJ cam. 2V heads work fine with single pattern cams.

>Heads: The cleveland 4V head is a good part. It has been proven with modifications,
>it makes more HP than even the new Motorsport heads.

Dave is referring to the "high ported" Pro Stock Cleveland heads, the ones
where they saw off the exhaust ports and bolt on spacer plate with a raised
exhaust port. When the aluminum Motorsport canted valve heads first came
out, it was claimed (can't remember if it was Glidden, Dyno Don, or Roush
that did the claiming) that their fully ported Pro Stock 4V heads would
outflow the new Motorsport parts. It's not clear whether the the comparison
was apples to apples (both fully ported) or not. I just happen to have picked
up a set Gapp and Roush Pro Stock heads recently and have a few sets of
Motorsport aluminum high ports, so I've decided to flow test them in the
near future just to satisfy my curiosity. Eyeballing the heads side by side,
it appears to me that there's nothing you could do to an iron 4V head that
couldn't be done to an aluminum Motorsport head. The reverse is not true.

One interesting thing about the G&R heads is they have turning vanes
screwed into the bottom of the intake ports, apparently to produce swirl.

>If you want to extact every little bit of power, then you should machine the
>heads for rocker studs and guide plates and use roller rockers.

Given the high lift of a typical Cleveland performance cam, rollers are
a good investment.

>It is always a good idea to use some type of 1 piece valve.

Also, you want a tight fitting keeper, not the stock loose grip Ford style.
Valvetrain failure, either the head popping off the stem or the stem slipping
out of the keeper, is the number one Cleveland failure. Both Dave (on one of
his turbo motors) and myself have ruined motors this way. Do not skimp on
the valvetrain.

>Carbs. I prefer running a Carter/Eddlebrock carb for a street car up to
>engine 4 and use a Holley for Engine 4 and above. Holleys make better upper
>end power, but the Carter is more driveable and will get better mileage. The
>new Edlebrock is an improved design of the old Carter AFB. Always run a large
>size fuel filter and good fuel pump. It is not good to run out of fuel at 6000
>rpm.

Carbs tend to be a religous issue to most but the above is good advice.
You can get decent fuel economy out of a Holley but you often have to
modify PVCR's.

>Exhaust. Any engine can always use large exhaust, but don't go too big with the
>header primary tube size or HP may be lost.

The usual is 1 7/8" for a 4V, 1 3/4" for a 2V, since that's the smallest
size that will fit the exhaust ports.

>Combo 1 -- Basically stock
>Aftermarket 600 cfm carb with modified adaptor plate to fit spread bore intake
>of open adaptor.

The stock carbs were 715 CFM spreadbores. 600 CFM will lose horsepower.

>Combo 2 -- Hot stock
>Performer intake.

The Performer intake's big advantage is that it's aluminum. May not make
any more horsepower. In fact, a friend reported a 700 rpm loss compared
to a stock Ford intake.

>***Note, Combo 3 was my first engine build with the exception of the valves
>and fuel pump. It would pull hard at 150 MPH, Smoke the tires right off the
>car, and take any Mustang or Camaro that was not modified strictly for racing
>and this includes some with Nitrous. I never took the car all the way out,
>but I feel it would of ran 175. I did have it to 160 but since I did not add
>the fuel pump, I was running out of fuel flow at 6000 RPM.

Dave's referring to the Cleveland as installed into a Pantera, which has
a low coefficient of drag. The same engine in an old Mustang won't pull
the same top speed. I have Clevelands in a Pantera and a '66 Mustang
fastback and above 100 mph, the Pantera feels like it's pulling from 40 mph.

>Combo 4 -- Hot
>Mildly clean up cylinder head port areas around valve pocket area.

Good advice for all builds is to spend some time on the bowls and valve job.

>FPP dual plane intake or Eddlebrock Torker or Holley Strip dominator intake

Blue Thunder (FPP) or Strip Dominator much preferred over the Torker.

>High Volume Oil pump with Chrome molly oil pump drive rod.
>Extra volume oil pan.

Alternatively, a higher bypass pressure (shimmed or stiffer spring).

>Combo 5 -- Wild
>Edlebrock Torker or Victor Jr or Holley Strip dominator or equivelent
>single plane intake.

No Victor Jr available for iron Cleveland heads. The Victor AH-II
is for high port heads on a 9.2 deck. Australian Terry Parker does
make a tall single plane spider type race intake though. Also,
Motorsport high port intakes can be ported to match.

At this point, for a street engine, stroking becomes attractive, allowing
more horsepower while retaining driveability. Also high port heads are
always nice to have.

>HP: 500 to 1000 depending on boost.

The candle that burns twice as bright, burns half as long... and you
have burned so very brightly Roy.

posted 09-15-2000 09:56 AM            

You're correct, Roush (and Marino Perna at Panteras East) still carry
the lower port stuffers but those aren't what these heads have. These
heads have thin turning vanes (think of an airfoil set on it's side)
mounted vertically in the port.