Author
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Topic: Cleveland Stroker
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Scott (69Mach) Gearhead Posts: 719 From: Walnut Creek, CA USA Registered: JUN 99
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posted 07-28-2000 10:14 AM
Alright Moneymaker, we need you to weigh in on this topic. The 393 Windsor thread got me thinking about stroking the cleveland. My biggest concern is that I'll lose some revs due to the longer stroke. On the plus side, I'll gain some torque down low. If I'm building a hot street and occaissional strip car, which is the better setup. With my 4V heads and 3.73 rear I don't know if I'm better off spinning the 351 higher or going for the torque lower down. Which combo will give me a better kick in the seat?The Flatlander Racing site has 393 and 407 cleveland stroker kits and I'm sure there are others out there as well. Any special considerations building one of these? Any special machining I need to worry about? Rev limits and cam recommendations??? Educate me.
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Daniel Jones Gearhead Posts: 790 From: St. Louis, MO Registered: AUG 99
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posted 07-28-2000 11:31 AM
Here's a Cleveland stroker a friend did in his Pantera. Dyno'd at 432 RWHP at 6200 rpm. Rod to stroke ratio is not ideal but it's a little better than a production Chevy 400. For a primarily street car, cubes are good. For a race motor, other considerations (and class rules) may drive you to a different solution. Dan Jones Building a 414 STROKER Cleveland The car is a daily driver and weekend warrior, so we had to establish a realistic goal. This became: 500hp, pump gas, 6500rpm max, 6000rpm practical limit, low maintenance. In fifth gear this is plenty fast. With 500hp it will get there fast too! As you will see this is not a 'trick' engine. I built this to be as easy on the wallet as possible, yet still meet the goal. Today 1hp per cubic inch is very easy to do, 2hp percubic inch is up in the realm of drag race/Nascar, so our plan became a big inch 1.25hp per cube motor. This is how (and why) we went about it. 351c all cast iron. 4.060 bore, 4.0 stroke, = 414cubic inches (x 1.25 = 500+ hp ) note: block is D2AE-CA used race block that already had thousands of miles at .045 over without a problem. This is the only reason this block was not sonic checked. Except in this case I would never bore a block this big, without a sonic check first. This was honed with torque plates at Johns request to 4.062. Crank is a production 400 'M' of unknown origin radically ground down from 2.311 on the rods to 2.100 and from 3.000 mains to 2.750. Yes that is over .200 under, it is a source of amusement when people worry about .020 or .030 under crank! This crank was supplied as part of a kit purchased from a local speed shop, the snout, the counterweights, and the oil passages were modified to work in the 351c block. As recieved (fully balanced) I simply washed it and bolted it into the block with 110ftlbs and 45ftlbs. Rods furnished with the kit are Eagle 6.000 small block Chevy (gets the expense down) I numbered them washed them and installed them as is, torqued to 90ftlbs. Pistons, also furnished with the kit are Ross, actual size 4.055 dia (.007 clearance from 4.062 bore). Deck height 1.190 this produces compression of just over 11 to 1, my intention was to remove more material from the combustion chamber, bringing down the compression a little, but Vegas was too close. The rings are 1/16 Speed Pro single moly, file fitted to .016 end gap on the 1st ring and .012 on the 2nd ring. The oil ring is 3/16 standard tension with a Ross supplied spacer/bridge as the wrist pin is in the oil ring groove. Pin dia is .927 (small block chevy) with a .150 wall thickness and is 2.500 inches long. It is secured with 2 spirolocks per side. I numbered them, washed them and installed them on the rods adding the rings afterwards. The single valve relief (intake)is .312 deep at its lowest point, piston to valve clearance is .16 as my hydraulic cam is fairly short on duration. Bearings are H series small block Chevy, std rod bearings with no modifications, from Clevite running .0025 clearance. Mains are std 351c .003 clearance, by ACL and are not full grooved due to the crank being cross drilled by the supplier. Balancer is stock 4v/Cobra jet (used), Boss 351 or aftermarket would be a better choice. Flywheel is stock 351c. Oil system uses a standard volume oil pump with a Motorsport or Moroso high pressure spring shimmed with a .060 washer for 100lbs pressure cold. It has 2 cover plates to reduce cover flex. Windage tray, adjustable for stroke and rod combo's (clearance) from MPG head service in CO. Pan and pickup are rare factory De-Tomaso race pan (10 quarts) as pictured in the official race parts catolog, filter is Ford lf 1 hp, or Fram HP1 (due to the high pressure). No other oil system mods or restrictions. Standard oil pump driveshaft, aftermarket is not necessary. Oil is Mobil 1 synthetic 15-50 wt no additives. Timing chain is a used Cloyes true roller in good shape, the Ford Motorsport would be a good choice. Cam bearings are stock Ford, they are installed undersize and then machined true. Replacements are not as precise. Unless stockers are flaking I dont replace them. Cam, is a custom regrind hydraulic non-roller. Specs @.050 are 242 intake,248 exhaust lift at cam is 0.351" int, 0.327" exh, actual valve lift with 1.8 rocker ratio is 0.63" int, 0.59" exh, lobe center is 106 deg installed 4 deg advanced. Keep in mind that horesepower is only required to 6000 rpm so we dont need a top end cam but we do want a lot of torque to come out of corners hard. Lifters are used re-faced stock Ford (mfd by Eaton), local cam grinder did lifter refinishing for $1.00 apiece. Pushrods are Erson 3/8 hardened for guideplates. Boss 351 also would work well for mild spring pressures. Heads are 1970 351c 4v closed chamber, with hardened seats Erson stainless steel valves, Boss intakes or single groove TRW intakes are ok but do not use stock exhaust valves or TRW replacements. At these rpm's titanium is not necessary. These heads were modified by John for screw in studs and guideplates, although the Crane econo conversion works with low spring pressures (350 lbs max open). I ported the exhaust ports and bowls myself. Do not alter the intake port or bowl in any way, this is counter productive, it doesnt matter how ugly the intakes may look, you will only hurt them if you change them. Port plates on this engine would be a waste of money, they alter the port incorrectly by removing the venturi or high speed "neckdown" area needed to turn the mixture into the cylinder. The valve springs are 1.55 Erson singles, set at 125lbs closed and 350lbs open. the retainers are machined steel and machined steel locks. P.C. seals are installed without the protective sleeve for a looser fit on the valve stem (to promote valve guide lubrication). Head gaskets are Ford 'McCord' D3ZX6051 AA Felpro 1013 are also good. I applied silicone sealer to the back edge of the gasket to prevent water seepage. the head bolts are torqued in steps to 125ftlbs. The rockers are Erson rollers at 1.8 to 1 ratio set at '0' lash plus half turn preload. Intake is a Holley Strip Dominator, the best of the stock choices. This one had a lot of under carb work with a lot of time on the flowbench. it was purchased used, from a friend. Carb is a Holley 850 double pumper Ignition is a Duraspark distributor 34 deg total advance with a slow curve to avoid detonation with our compression ratio. MSD 6AL box and coil w 6500rpm chip. Street plugs are motorcraft AF32 raceplugs are AF501, gapped at .045. High flow aluminum water pump, Flow kooler or weiand. Exhaust, john's custom, GTS headers from Hall Pantera, modified to remove the 'Y' collector sections, and added a 2 1/8 step up, and large 4 into 1 collector, to a 3.0" pipe all the way back with 2 supertrapp Mufflers( 3.0" cores removed for the track). From start to finish, I spent 40 hours doing everything listed here, including the multi angle valve job and the port work. It fired right up, John drove it to Vegas to break it in, and used it full tilt for the first time at the PCNC track event. Could this motor be different...better...tricker...., sure! but not simpler or cheaper! footnote: On a Dyno Jet dyno, this motor installed in a Pantera, produced 432 horsepower(6200rpm) and 400ftlbs torque (5100rpm) at the rear wheels.
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Scott (69Mach) Gearhead Posts: 719 From: Walnut Creek, CA USA Registered: JUN 99
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posted 07-31-2000 02:36 PM
Dan, thanks for the excellent feedback (as always). Your responses are always very complete.However, I can't believe nobody else has any comments on building a stroked Cleveland. Come on guys, imagine those 4V heads feeding 400 ci instead of 351. Can you say Torque?!? FYI, the Flatlander Racing crew got back to me on the 393 kit. I explained the head work and other stuff the engine currently had. They recommended the 393 kit with a roller cam. They didn't spec the cam, but I imagine they could come up with some recommendations. They also indicated my 2,500 rpm converter was too low.
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denny Journeyman Posts: 69 From: Northfield NH USA Registered: JUL 2000
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posted 08-01-2000 12:04 AM
This is a non stroker that I run in a 73 mustang. 73 4 bolt block .005 over bore 70 closed chamber heads screw in studs comp cam alum. roller rockers. Torquer intake 850 holley carb. Ross flat top pistons 10.1:1 compression. Stock rods Moldex steel crank (I know its over kill but I broke a stock one) cam is a solid grind 246 @.050 571 lift for the intake. 256 @.050 .605 lift 108 centerline the cam is installed 4 degrees advanced horse power is 468 @6700 torque is 424@ 5000 The motor is in a 73 stang with power steering power brakes 4.56 gears 4 sp trans and has run a best of 11.96 @114 weighing 3650 #'s I put about 10,000 miles and 800 1/4 mile runs on this car in 10 years with no major problems. The one major maintance thing is valve springs I had 3 sets comp cams 928's I have since switched to a Jerico 4sp and sintered iron clutch witch are not very streetable but the car ran 11.74 @116.82 ------------------ D French 67 427 Fairlane(A/SA) 73 Mustang 351c
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Scott (69Mach) Gearhead Posts: 719 From: Walnut Creek, CA USA Registered: JUN 99
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posted 08-01-2000 10:16 AM
That's the first Cleveland crank that I've heard of breaking. However, sounds like the end product is damn healthy. How streetable was the combo before the tranny and clutch switch.
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Daniel Jones Gearhead Posts: 790 From: St. Louis, MO Registered: AUG 99
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posted 08-01-2000 12:55 PM
The 393 Cleveland strokers typically use the 2.75" main version of the SCAT 3.85" stroker crank, the same one Ford Motorsport uses in its 393 Windsor stroker crate motor. Compared to the 4" stroke 400 crank, you give up 0.15" stroke but can run a little longer rod or taller pin height piston. A friend recently had one built for his Pantera by the Byars brothers at Precision ProFormance http://www.precisionproformance.com/. I didn't see anything about the 393 stroker kit on their web page but I think Dennis paid around $1500 for it. I believe his actual displacement is less than 393 cubes because he only had to go 0.010" over on the block. He's running C302B aluminum Cleveland style heads with Roush intake and 180 degree headers. He was planning on a solid roller cam but ran out of money and went with an Isky hydraulic flat tappet (232 degrees duration @ 0.050", 0.565" lift, 108 lobe centers). Should have dyno numbers soon. His old motor was a 377 Cleveland (offset ground 351C crank) with closed chamber 4V heads, a Holley Strip Dominator intake, 750 Holley (flowed to 810 CFM), GTS pantera headers (Tri-Y design, 2" primaries, 2 1/4" collector), 2 1/4" intermediate pipes, GTS mufflers, and the same Isky cam. It dyno'd at 370 HP at the rear wheels, sufficient to push his Pantera to 180+ mph (averaged 165 mph over 92 miles at one of the Silver State open road races in Nevada). A similar stroker with a bit more cam (solid flat tappet) recently pulled over 450 HP at the crank with a dual plane Blue Thunder intake. Another made 472 HP with a Crower hdraulic flat tappet cam. The difference with the smaller strokers is they require more rpm to make the power and don't have as much torque down low. Dan Jones
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Scott (69Mach) Gearhead Posts: 719 From: Walnut Creek, CA USA Registered: JUN 99
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posted 08-01-2000 01:16 PM
With the exception of four degrees less cam and 2 more degrees LSA, no stoker and a dual plane blue thunder intake, my package is pretty similar to your friend's 377 package. Maybe I'll just get the existing crank offset ground and add a bit more cam to the package instead of getting the stroker kit. I'd settle for 370 rear wheel hp if I could get it. It may not be worth it to buy a new crank for the extra 16 cubes. What rods did your friend use for the 377?
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Daniel Jones Gearhead Posts: 790 From: St. Louis, MO Registered: AUG 99
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posted 08-01-2000 01:40 PM
He used 6" Chevy (Eagle) rods. You can also use 6.2" Eagle rods but the pin may intersect the ring land, so you have to use a bridge. The rods have to be narrowed or the crank journals widened. Narrowing the rods is cheapest/easiest. You also have to narrow the bearings but I've heard there are some Chevy V6 bearings that are already the right width. I've got a nice set of Wiseco forgings for a 3.7 stroke 351C using 6.0" Chevy rods stored away somewhere.Dan Jones
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Moneymaker Administrator Posts: 25052 From: Lyons, IL, USA Registered: MAY 99
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posted 08-01-2000 01:55 PM
OK here are my thoughts Scott. Go with the stroker. I have built a number of these with the same basic parameters outlined so eloquently by Dan Jones. (thanks for saving me a lot of typing time Dan) My favorite was a 404 inch version using Boss 351 heads and a flat top custom Arias piston. We used FoMoCo rods and a 400 crank. Lot's of block prep was required to the oiling system. We used a Weiand tunnel ram intake with 2 750 6179 DP Holleys. A .690 lift Crane roller cam and some mild port work. 2 inch headers with 32 inch primary tubes. It all went into a 68 Mustang coupe with a Doug Nash 5 speed 5.14 gears, and weighing in at 3200 lbs. With me driving the car ran 10.80's in 1980 and was still street driven every weekend. My slide rule calculates that into pretty close to 500 HP. Total cost in 1979 dollars was less than $3K. Figure at least twice that today. Alex------------------ Alex Denysenko Co-Administrator and Moderator Fleet of FoMoCo's too long to list! http://superstockers.homestead.com/week.html
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denny Journeyman Posts: 69 From: Northfield NH USA Registered: JUL 2000
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posted 08-01-2000 04:19 PM
Scott, my non strocker was quite streetable. No problems with power brakes, idles at 100-1100 fuel milage was 10-11mpg. 93 octane fuel was margial. I either backed the timing off from 34 total to 30 of ran some octane boost or a mix of cam2 and 93 ------------------ D French 67 427 Fairlane(A/SA) 73 Mustang 351c
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