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Author
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Topic: Traction for the '66???
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9835
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 01-27-2003 05:02 PM
 
I send an e-mail to cal-trac asking for recomendations on how to make the '66 hook up everytime. I gave them all the specs on the car and which components we're using now. Here's thier response;Cal-Tracs! A set of Cal-Tracs and our new 200lb. spring rate monos will do the trick for you. The Cal-Tracs are 319.00 and the mono leafs are 258.00 per pair including bushings. We can set the ride height any where you want. Stock height or 1-2 inches higher or 1-2 inches lower than stock your choice. If you have further questions or would like to order please call us at 1-800-607-2266
Thanks, Travis@Calvert Racing What do you think, will they work as well as they say? Which height would I want, a little taller would help fit bigger slicks but would it limit weight transfer too much? SteveW
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 01-27-2003 05:18 PM
Did you really expect them to answer anything other than saying you needed their product?  I'm sure they would help, but since I have no experiance with them, I cant say how much. Perhaps Alex can answer that.
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-27-2003 07:18 PM
Cal-Trac bars yes! 
Cal-Trac springs NO!  I don't know Travis very well, but I do know John very well. We've been friends for years. I sell, install, and endorse his traction bars 100%. 50% of the racers I know that have tried the springs are not happy with them and have removed them.
35% are slow and don't make enough power to make any difference. 15% say they work, but are very close with John and had tried two or three different sets of springs before they found some that they are content with. All of those have 67-70 Mustangs, not 65-66's. Everyone that I have turned on to Flex-i-Form is happy and fast. No brag,just fact!
200 lbs is too stiff also. 175 lbs max for your car Steve.
Call George at 864-617-8362 and talk to him. Tell him I sent you. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!  ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9835
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 01-28-2003 12:10 AM
Alex,I need this thing to hook up like a back halfed car with 14" slicks.
Will CalTrac's and flexi-forms do as well? Or just better than what it is now? The money is about the same for the parts. Remember we can do it either way. SteveW
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-28-2003 12:24 AM
Put the Glass springs, Cal-Tracs, and QA-1 shocks on it and you'll hook it on NINE inch tires Steve. 
(providing that you have the front end all in order)------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 01-28-2003 09:23 AM
Are the weight ratings on leaf springs different than the weight ratings on coil springs? I'm just curious because even 175 lbs seems like an awful lot to me. But all I have dealt with is coilovers and dont know how to compare them.
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-28-2003 11:22 AM
It's still PSI Rob, but only spread out over a much larger area.------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead Posts: 3237
From: Stanton, Michigan, zip 48888
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 01-28-2003 04:44 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kid vishus:
...Are the weight ratings on leaf springs different than the weight ratings on coil springs?
It was my belief that chassis springs (coil or leafs) were rated by the amount of effort (in pounds) necessary to deflect the spring one inch (Pounds/Square Inch)....? KV: I take it you're running coilovers under the rear of your '69 - What are they rated at? Ryan
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 01-28-2003 04:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Wilke:
KV: I take it you're running coilovers under the rear of your '69 - What are they rated at? Ryan
Yes I am.
They are 130#. I tried 110# springs on it a summer ago, and it wouldn't hook no matter what I tried (no preload in them, some preload in them, LOTS of preload in them, and no matter what the launch rpm was).
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-28-2003 05:42 PM
1.38 60 foot leave on nine inch tires.https://www.autoimagery.com/store/cgi-bin/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Photos_-_NHRA_National_Events_2002/Joliet_-_Craftsman_Nationals_-_Sep_2002/Super_Stock&image=0239-0107.jpg &img=0&search=Alex%20Denysenko&cat=all&tt=&bool=and&tfile=tn_0239-0107.jpg&numtolist=12&sortfiles=2
------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead Posts: 3237
From: Stanton, Michigan, zip 48888
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 01-28-2003 05:44 PM
KV:
That IS lighter than I would of thought. Hmmm. However, there's no disputing that your '69 "Gets it Up and Outta There" just fine!!  Ryan
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 01-28-2003 05:50 PM
My car is pretty light for what it is. It weighs #2845 with my 210# butt in it and 50 lbs of ballast next to the cell in back. And its not balanced too badly for an all steel car, 51% front, 49% on the rear.
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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead Posts: 3237
From: Stanton, Michigan, zip 48888
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 01-28-2003 05:56 PM
I got this info 'from somewhere' (maybe here!) some time ago and thought it might be helpful..... Here's an example formula to figure leaf springs: 2.50 width of springs
4 number of springs
0.25 thickness of one leaf
53in. length of spring
12 constant for leaf springs (2.50 X 4) X (1000 X .25)3rd power
___________________________________
( 12 ) X ( 60 ) = 0.83 X (4.17)3
or 60.17 lbs-in. approx Remember springs are linear so if the car goes beyond the springs "static state" it increases 60.17lbs. per inch so a three inch drop height from a static spring would be 60.17 X 3 or a 180.51 lb spring rate with the car resting fully on the wheels. Know too, that using the leaf spring formula, it is more accurate to do each leaf individually, then to do the whole spring pack as a whole. I guess there IS more to it that I once thought....... :\ Ryan
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RobsRestoMod
Journeyman Posts: 29
From: Spring, Texas
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 01-29-2003 07:45 PM
Hey Steve, What kind of springs are you using in the front of the car??Thanks Rob
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9835
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 01-29-2003 09:46 PM
Rob,The front springs are the original v-8 springs. The shock towers are lowered for a little extra upward travel and 90-10 shocks. SteveW
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9835
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 01-29-2003 09:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
1.38 60 foot leave on nine inch tires.[URL=https://www.autoimagery.com/store/cgi-bin/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Photos_-_NHRA_National_Events_2002/Joliet_-_Craftsman_Nationals_-_Sep_2002/Super_Stock&image=0239-010 7.jpg]https://www.autoimagery.com/store/cgi-bin/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Photos_-_NHRA_National_Events_2002/Joliet_-_Craftsman_Nationals_-_Sep_2002/Super_Stock&image=0239-01 07.jpg[/URL] &img=0&search=Alex%20Denysenko&cat=all&tt=&bool=and&tfile=tn_0239-0107.jpg&numtolist=12&sortfiles=2
Very nice Alex, but without the ladder bars would it do it everytime?
Even after you followed a f.w.d. car that drug water from his rear tires up to the line? SteveW
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 01-29-2003 10:00 PM
I'm picky about who I pull behind, even if that means "dragging my feet" and letting some other cars go ahead of me. I refuse to pull behind cars with treaded tires, and prefer to get behind fast cars with tires bigger than mine. If I were to start to get behind a car I know will drag water up, I will stop, open the door, hang my head out like I'm looking at something that might be wrong, and motion a couple of cars behind me around.
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9835
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 01-29-2003 10:05 PM
KV,Good point!
But when you're first in line? My question is can it really compete with something like Ted Steiple's Austin Heally? That thing really will run the number even if you moved the water box to the starting line. SteveW
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TomP
Gearhead Posts: 6376
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99
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posted 01-29-2003 11:02 PM
SteveNothing is a sure bet. The smaller tires will be faster, but maybe at the risk of breaking loose if the track is bad... but big tires can do that too. The smallest tire than will hook is the fastest. It's why Comp Eliminator dragsters don't run 17x33's when they are allowed to. As for traction, Alex does fine and the local Mopar in Alex' class (SS/LA) wheelstands on the bumper with those 10.5" Hoosiers. I wouldn't cut that Mustang up just for consistancy.
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-29-2003 11:09 PM
OK, here's my good friend Lance Line Steve.
Flex-i-Form springs, QA-1 shocks, and Cal-Tracs on 9 inch tires. 1.32 60 foot times with 10.20 ET's B/SA.
I'll shut up after this one
https://www.autoimagery.com/store/cgi-bin/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Photos_-_NHRA_National_Events_2001/Joliet_-_NHRA_Nationals_-_Sep_2001/Stock&image=Jol201-0112.jpg&img=0&se arch=Lance%20Line&cat=all&tt=&bool=and&tfile=tn_Jol201-0112.jpg&numtolist=12&sortfiles=2
------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 01-29-2003 11:09 PM
Keys to bracket racing by Scotty Richardson "over tire, under gear,& a loose convertor". Also, you can't pay me enough to be the first car in line. No way do I want to be the first guy out, especially if the class follows street, or worse yet, jr's. 3 or 4 cars back is about as close as I want to be, unless there just aren't that many cars left.
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9835
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 01-29-2003 11:12 PM
Tom,Thanks for that!
Cutting the mustang up isn't an option anyway.
It's a heirloom, her G'pa passed it on to her, but mini tubs would've been a possibility.
I'll try the glass springs and cal-trac's but first I have to get my "other" project on the road. Steve'66
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9835
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 01-29-2003 11:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kid vishus:
Keys to bracket racing by Scotty Richardson "over tire, under gear,& a loose convertor".
I agree KV! SteveW
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-29-2003 11:15 PM
You can see the spring real well on the left side in that pic. ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9835
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 01-29-2003 11:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
I'll shut up after this one
Alex, Please don't do that. SteveW
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9835
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 01-29-2003 11:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
You can see the spring real well on the left side in that pic.
Alex, How much are those springs? They are very cool BTW. SteveW
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9835
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 01-29-2003 11:29 PM
You know what else is "cool" is the average reaction to the '66 running 10's with a stock cast iron water pump, alternator, copper radiator, drum brakes, slapper bars, etc. Running quicker than the cars that have have all the goodies, tubbed, lexan windowed, cars that look like they should run 9's. It's a "sleeper" at the track, like that matters in bracket racing.
SteveW
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-29-2003 11:31 PM
They are like $500 a pair with shipping Steve.
Roughly $230 each plus shipping.
They take plastic.
Georges private number is 864-617-8362
Tell him I sent you.
------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9835
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 01-30-2003 12:00 AM
I guess I'd better hurry up on the other project Alex! If they work like you say, it would be a way to make the car compete w/o cutting it up, and it would still retain the "cool factor" and not look like a 9 second car that runs "slow". SteveW
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WARDF
Journeyman Posts: 44
From: Cecilia, Ky. USA
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 01-30-2003 08:13 AM
Man this is my favorite info thread in awhile. I asked the question on the cal-trac thread earlier about the mono leafs, but didn't get an answer. This is a very informative thread. I didn't know that Alex was a dealer for cal-tracs, I have really liked all the feedback I've heard about them. Thanks for the # to the springs.
So Alex if we buy the cal-tracs from you will you also supply moral support? Thanks for the info.
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65_289
Gearhead Posts: 761
From:
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 01-30-2003 01:26 PM
What happened to flex-a-form.com? The site is no longer there, and they just list some contact info for them...
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-30-2003 01:54 PM
Reformating their website. Call them if you need info or product now.------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 01-30-2003 05:06 PM
quote:
Originally posted by steve'66:
You know what else is "cool" is the average reaction to the '66 running 10's with a stock cast iron water pump, alternator, copper radiator, drum brakes, slapper bars, etc. Running quicker than the cars that have have all the goodies, tubbed, lexan windowed, cars that look like they should run 9's. It's a "sleeper" at the track, like that matters in bracket racing.
SteveW
I've always liked during time trials, when I line up with a full tube chassis, fiberglass bodied (insert chevy car here), that sounds truely bad a$$ thru open hedders. I always figure, whats the worst that can happen, that mega dollar car will outrun me in a heads up race, well by all rights it should. Then the tree comes down, and more often than not, that mega dollar bad a$$ car gets left behind by my low buck small block Ford running thu the mufflers.
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9835
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 01-30-2003 08:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kid vishus:
I've always liked during time trials, when I line up with a full tube chassis, fiberglass bodied (insert chevy car here), that sounds truely bad a$$ thru open hedders. I always figure, whats the worst that can happen, that mega dollar car will outrun me in a heads up race, well by all rights it should. Then the tree comes down, and more often than not, that mega dollar bad a$$ car gets left behind by my low buck small block Ford running thu the mufflers.
Rob, It feels great doesn't it. SteveW
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-30-2003 11:11 PM
Especially with a 289 with OE cast heads and a 400 CFM 38 year old carb.  ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9835
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 11-04-2003 11:39 PM
Thanks Alex,The '66 has performed well this year and been in it's share of final rounds in "Pro" (our CompRod class where anything goes boxes rails etc.)! Even with the little 10-26 slicks. Many times the tubbed car went out spinning off the line while the little tired '66 hooked and ran its number. The CalTracs and glass monoleaf spring have done what you said it would. SteveW
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Razor
Journeyman Posts: 14
From: Niagara Falls , Canada
Registered: May 2003
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posted 11-06-2003 11:13 PM
For Alex , If Cal-tracs work so good why are you using ladder bars..?
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70coupe
Gearhead Posts: 493
From: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 11-07-2003 11:15 AM
I'll take a stab!
Ladder bars are better for all out racing only. Cal tracs are better for a car that does some street driving.
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clevelandstyle
Gearhead Posts: 1558
From: central Indiana
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 11-07-2003 12:18 PM
Caltracs are a bolt on for a guy who doesn't want to cut up his car. Ladder bars are a whole different kind of suspension which requires cutting and welding.Caltracs can be found a lot in stock eliminator where they can only use bolt ons with the stock style suspension.
Ladder bars can be founsd in most other classes where rules are less prohibitive. ------------------
Ben
Grabber Green '70 Mach I 351C 4V
Robbin Egg Blue '79 Fairmont 351C 4V
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CHIPSBAD67
Gearhead Posts: 396
From: LOU,KY;USA
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 11-07-2003 08:46 PM
the recomendation i got from cal-tracs was to run landrum multileaf drag springs. so i called landrum and got what was recomended....i believe they are 225# springs. i also bought the rs9000 5 way adjustable shocks, like they recomended. i havent got the cal-tracs yet, still running the slapper bars....however, the "recomended" parts sure got outdated quick. hmmm. so now cal-trac is telling people to run monoleafs and qa1 shocks? i guess until i see a car running an 8 inch wide et street on caltracs that gets a better 60ft. than the cheap steup i run im not buying. no electronics help either. lets compare apples to apples here. im talking a 4 speed car, no timing retard for launch. i bet alex would say the springs i got are way too stiff. he's probably right. so tired of getting bad advice, my budget and patience cant take it. i bought a brand new hayes long style 11 inch clutch and plate this year. its already slipping. now ive got guys telling me i need a "spec" clutch, whatever that is. geesh!------------------
306, 4speed, 4.11's....best 1/8 mile 7.58 at 92mph with 1.72 60ft. PUMP GAS/NO ADDERS/STREET TIRES
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CHIPSBAD67
Gearhead Posts: 396
From: LOU,KY;USA
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 11-07-2003 08:51 PM
just wanted to add that ive been 1.66 a half dozen times when launching at higher rpm and not using the 2-step. but the car is way inconsistant trying it that way. it will go low 1.70's always on the 2-step at 5400. the other way it eith goes into the 1.6's or well into the 1.8's which totally kills the run.------------------
306, 4speed, 4.11's....best 1/8 mile 7.58 at 92mph with 1.72 60ft. PUMP GAS/NO ADDERS/STREET TIRES
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654212spd
Gearhead Posts: 131
From: st.louis mo usa
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 11-07-2003 10:16 PM
goo d question razor thats what im trying to decide on what to do ladder bars or flex i form springs
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jsracingbbf
unregistered
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posted 11-07-2003 10:37 PM
If there are no restrictions on cuttin the rear of the car's sheet metal, then it's an easy choice. ladder bars and coil overs or a 4 link and coil overs. Question? Do you see any one switching from coilovers and ladder bars or four links back to leaf springs and slapper bars? or cal tracs? or flex a forms??? I didn't think so.
The leafs and caltracs are GREAT if you don't want to cut your car, and I can understand why some folks wouldn't. ------------------
JS
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9835
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 11-07-2003 10:50 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 654212spd:
goo d question razor thats what im trying to decide on what to do ladder bars or flex i form springs
MoneyMaker is a ladderbar car with flex-i-form springs. So I guess you don't have to decide, you can have both. But LadderBars are a witch when you get the car sideways down track! If I were to back half a car I'd go right to a 4 Link. SteveW
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XR7
Gearhead Posts: 191
From: north Idaho
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted 11-08-2003 11:36 AM
Maybe it isn't such a witch if you use ladderbars with flexi-form leafs. With coil overs you have to have a locating device like a panhard bar or diagonal link. The rear end housing moves around a little (side to side) through the range of motion and this just gets worse when correcting and over-correcting trying to save it. The leaf spring would locate the housing with a floater which only allows front to back and pivot motion not side to side. I'm trying to decide on what direction to go myself, either caltracs or ladderbars with flexi-forms. I will minitub it to the frame rails.[This message has been edited by XR7 (edited 11-08-2003).]
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654212spd
Gearhead Posts: 131
From: st.louis mo usa
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 11-08-2003 03:36 PM
thats steve
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 11-08-2003 04:11 PM
quote:
Originally posted by steve'66:
But LadderBars are a witch when you get the car sideways down track! If I were to back half a car I'd go right to a 4 Link.
You get any slick equipped car sideways downtrack and if it's a fast car, you better lift or you're gonna crash it, regardless of what kind of rear suspension it has. The only problem with ladderbars and leaf springs is, it generally does'nt work as well as a coil over ladderbar car. Alex's car works real good, but it is an exception and not the norm. I had a leaf spring/ladderbar car once. It worked good too, most of the time. However, the adjustment is not there with leaf springs like there is with coilovers. My coilover/ladderbar works a ton better than my leaf spring ladder bar set up did. I still think getting good 60' times is more in the whole package than just in the rear suspension. KK's car has the factory leaf springs on the back with old slapper bars, 10" wide slicks, and wore out air shocks (definately not anything special about it) and consistantly get's 60' times in the mid 1.60's while running 7.60's. It has run several 1.65's, and last weekend on a span of 5 passes went in this order; 1.679, 1.683, 1.679, 1.680, 1.675. And that is footbraking while stalling around 3k at the line.
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CHIPSBAD67
Gearhead Posts: 396
From: LOU,KY;USA
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 11-09-2003 02:39 PM
kid, what are you calling a 10 inch slick? have you cut the car to fit this tire? the et streets a rung are ballooned out to 11.5 inches but the actual tread width that contacts the pavement is just over 8 inches. i dont think i could get a wider tire without cutting, i had to roll the edges inside the quarters to get these to work and they still rub if youre not real slow in the turns on the street (no sway bar).------------------
306, 4speed, 4.11's....best 1/8 mile 7.58 at 92mph with 1.72 60ft. PUMP GAS/NO ADDERS/STREET TIRES
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 11-09-2003 02:53 PM
It's a Hoosier 28 x 10.5" slick. The fenders aren't cut or rolled. They fit pretty well actually. If the rims had 1" more of backspacing they would fit even better.
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CHIPSBAD67
Gearhead Posts: 396
From: LOU,KY;USA
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 11-09-2003 10:46 PM
ok, i got the mickey 28x11.5x15's. not really an 11.5 wide tire tread width. this is section width or width at the widest part of the tire where it balloons out. when you say a 10.5 inch tire you are talking a lot less that actually contacts the pavement. actually think that section width number is just big load of h.s. should count tires by tread width or contact width. just another usless piece of info. who cares if the tire is 3 feet wide if only 6 inches touches the ground. ------------------
306, 4speed, 4.11's....best 1/8 mile 7.58 at 92mph with 1.72 60ft. PUMP GAS/NO ADDERS/STREET TIRES
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 11-10-2003 07:37 AM
Huh??Sounds like a MT problem to me. The Hoosier tires that are on KK's car measure 10.3" inches of tread, and 12" of section width. Most slick companies list them this same way. If MT doesn't, that's just one more reason for me to make sure I never buy any of thier stuff. Or, maybe it's just the way they measure the DOT tires. Whcih, I will never buy anyways.
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clevelandstyle
Gearhead Posts: 1558
From: central Indiana
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 11-10-2003 12:32 PM
Chip, the street slicks and drag slicks are rated differently. The street tires rate by section width. Drag slicks are rated by tread width. Don't get the 2 confused.
I don't know why they do that. It can be confusing.------------------
Ben
Grabber Green '70 Mach I 351C 4V
Robbin Egg Blue '79 Fairmont 351C 4V
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 11-10-2003 05:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kid vishus:
The only problem with ladderbars and leaf springs is, it generally does'nt work as well as a coil over ladderbar car. Alex's car works real good, but it is an exception and not the norm. I had a leaf spring/ladderbar car once. It worked good too, most of the time. However, the adjustment is not there with leaf springs like there is with coilovers. My coilover/ladderbar works a ton better than my leaf spring ladder bar set up did.
The key to making a ladder bar leaf spring package work is a floater and "good" shocks. Let's remember that the primary purpose of the springs is to support the body on a ladder bar car. There are only two types of cars that in my oppinion cannot be improved upon over a proper leaf/ladder/floater set up.
65-66 Mustang coupe and 70-74 Barracuda. Those two particular cars have the absolute worst front to rear weight biased of any.
If MM was a fastback it would probably have coil overs on it.
We worked hard with the Williams Bros. Smokey Comet. They went from a mono leaf ladder/floater deal to a coil over ladder. Two full years of shock adjusting, multiple coil spring changes and weight jacking, and a recent converter swap have just now returned the car to it's leaf/ladder 60 foot times.
Dan Fletcher told me that if he had it to do over again he would not have swapped out his Ed Quay designed (similar to MM's) ladder leaf set up for a 4 link. He did it soley to get away from the violent wheel stands he used to do. It is a lot of maintanace for him now.------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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654212spd
Gearhead Posts: 131
From: st.louis mo usa
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 11-10-2003 07:23 PM
alex that is the answer i wanted to here since i have a fastback
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Tom G
Gearhead Posts: 1069
From: Bethlehem, Pa USA
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 11-10-2003 09:41 PM
If we could download all the tuning info in Alex's head we wouldn't have any hard drive space left. Thanks Alex.------------------
67 Mustang F/B 302 GT-40X FMS Crate engine 5 spd cable clutch13.39 on 205/70/14 BFG @104 mph Flowmasters X Pipe 4.11 9". Body shop Dec 03 03 Focus ZX3 BORLA exhaust Wings West spoiler (Arrest ME RED)
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 11-11-2003 10:52 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Tom G:
If we could download all the tuning info in Alex's head we wouldn't have any hard drive space left. Thanks Alex.
I think that I am running out of "space" myself!  ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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CHIPSBAD67
Gearhead Posts: 396
From: LOU,KY;USA
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 11-11-2003 07:08 PM
somehow i get the idea kid doesnt like mickey's tires. i dont know much about drag slicks and i dont know why they use a different set of numbers on the et street. kid i can promise you this, you will not find a better dot legal sticky than the et street. just because my best 60's are in the mid 1.6's dont let that sway your vote. theres a lot of cars that hook on these tires and post numbers that rival the best of slicks. i wonder how you got such a wide tire under your car without modification. im certain my tire isnt holding me back near as much as my suspension. alex, are my 225# landrum drag springs too much for my slapper bar setup? ore are you just recomendeing the lighter rate mono spring because he is going to use the caltracs? do you think my 60's would improve with the cal-tracs and the monoleafs?------------------
306, 4speed, 4.11's....best 1/8 mile 7.58 at 92mph with 1.72 60ft. PUMP GAS/NO ADDERS/STREET TIRES
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 11-11-2003 07:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CHIPSBAD67:
somehow i get the idea kid doesnt like mickey's tires.
The first pair of slicks I ever bought new were MT's. They were harder than the Cooper street radials that are on my car now. I had to kill them in the waterbox to get them hot enough to hook. I hated them. I swore after that I would never buy another pair, and I stand by that now. There are so many better brands of tires out there, I see no reason to buy the bottom of the barrel tires.
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 11-11-2003 08:11 PM
225 lbs is way too stiff for a drag car.
That's close to a road race spring.
160-180 lbs tops!------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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jsracingbbf
unregistered
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posted 11-11-2003 08:34 PM
I just removed some 130 lb coil overs and put some 110 coilovers on the rear of my car.
( thanks KV )
Mine was WAY too stiff in the rear.
------------------
JS
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag
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CHIPSBAD67
Gearhead Posts: 396
From: LOU,KY;USA
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 11-11-2003 08:43 PM
hey alex, how ugly would it be to take a leaf out of my springs? i mean, is it a possibility to get me closer to where....like 150lbs? i really have no idea what rate i need. the reason i got those was becasue thats what landrum recomended.....heck they even said "ford drag springs" on the springs. i thinks they have 4 leafs right now. if you could tell me what rate ballpark i should be in with the slappers i could call them up and see if i could make these work with alterations. kid, man it sounds like you got a bad set of tires. im not a saleman for m/t but they shouldve replaced that set just to keep you as a customer.------------------
306, 4speed, 4.11's....best 1/8 mile 7.58 at 92mph with 1.72 60ft. PUMP GAS/NO ADDERS/STREET TIRES
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 11-11-2003 08:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CHIPSBAD67:
hey alex, how ugly would it be to take a leaf out of my springs? i mean, is it a possibility to get me closer to where....like 150lbs? i really have no idea what rate i need. the reason i got those was becasue thats what landrum recomended.....heck they even said "ford drag springs" on the springs. i thinks they have 4 leafs right now. if you could tell me what rate ballpark i should be in with the slappers i could call them up and see if i could make these work with alterations. kid, man it sounds like you got a bad set of tires. im not a saleman for m/t but they shouldve replaced that set just to keep you as a customer.
The multi leaf steel springs are layered to achieve a desired rate. The main leaf is too weak on it's own.
I would not even consider removing a leaf from to 4 leaf OE replacment deal as they would wrap up like a cheap sausage the first time you put a hit to them. 
------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead Posts: 3237
From: Stanton, Michigan, zip 48888
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 11-12-2003 08:37 AM
I don't recall where I got this from but it should help ya out: "An exapmple formula for leaf springs. Plug in your values if they're different: 2.50 width of springs
4 number of springs
0.25 thickness of one leaf
53in. length of spring
12 constant for leaf springs (2.50 X 4) X (1000 X 0.25)3rd power
_____________________________________
(12) X (60) = 0.83 X (4.17)3
or 60.17 lbs-in. approx Remember springs are linear so if the car goes beyond the springs "static state" it increases 60.17lbs. per inch so a three inch drop height from a static spring would be 60.17 X 3 or a 180.51 lb spring rate with the car resting fully on the wheels. Know too, that using the leaf spring formula, it is more accurate to do each leaf individually, then to do the whole spring pack as a whole."
Ryan
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CometGT1974
Gearhead Posts: 479
From: Asheville, NC USA
Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 11-12-2003 11:54 AM
KV, I think it's interesting that you don't like the MT tires. I have only run on Hoosiers and every drag racer as Shadyside and at Farmington tells me to get rid of the hoosiers and put some MT's on there. I'd say i've had over 30 people at the track (fast race car drivers) tell me to dump the hoosiers, they said that they are junk compared to the MT's. (26x10" to be exact on size) Everyone in the Pure Street and Real Street classes are running MT's and most of them say they will never run a Hoosier again. What's everyone's thought on this??
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 11-12-2003 12:11 PM
Man oh man, this tire is good, this tire is bad. 
Guys, 90% of the time it isn't the tire manufacturer choice, but the tire selection that is the problem!
I have run them ALL! Even M&H lol!
We run Goodyears right now frankly for two reasons.
One, they have the quickest radial out there.
Two, we are on a Goodyear deal. I am not ashamed to admit it.
We hope to continue our association with Goodyear into the 2004 season, but should that not happen, them most likely we will go back to the Pheonix brand tire for "eliminations" mode. It is quicker and longer lasting than the biased Goodyear.
We have tried EVERY radial slick and NONE is quicker than the 6502 Goodyear.
We also have been approached by M/T to do some "new" radial testing for them in early 2004 which we will probably do. They are introducing several new size radial slicks which many of you racers here at M&M will be interested in.
All and all I have found that regardless of brand, if you chose the wrong tire size and or compound for your application, it won't work. If you cars suspension is wrong or missengineered, then 17 inch funny car tires won't hook up!
Also, another issue that we find all to often is incorrect tire pressure.
More often than not, guys blame tires for inadequate traction, when too little air pressure is the culprit. Too little pressure will allow the contact area of the slick to roll over itself and chatter to a spin.
Video of starting line launch is usually priceless.
Forget about what your local competitors tell you. Do you realy think that they want you to out run them??????? ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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CometGT1974
Gearhead Posts: 479
From: Asheville, NC USA
Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 11-12-2003 12:25 PM
Speaking of videos, did you get the clips I sent you Alex??
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n2oMike
Gearhead Posts: 3058
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 11-12-2003 12:45 PM
As for Hoosiers...As far as most of us on here go, we are not class racing, and we are not all that traction limited when on slicks. Hoosiers have way deeper tread than Mickey Thompson slicks, and will last FOREVER in most applications. I used a set of 26x10 Hoosier slicks on the mustang for a year or two before stepping up to a 28" tall tire. I then sold them to a friend who STILL uses them on his nitroused 351C (2bbl heads) powered 72 Mach I street car. It's got a TOTALLY stock body/interior and stock rear suspension with the only addition being a 'dead leaf' to stiffen things up. Launching on the nitrous, it pulls the left front wheel to 1.5-1.6 60ft times... and the tires are around 7 years old! They still have a ton of tread left and work great. My car produced a 1.46 second 60ft time with those tires pulling the wheels in first AND second gear... and it was just equipped with plain ole' slapper bars! I won't say anything bad about Hoosier tires. I've used both those and MT, and can't tell much of a difference... except the Hoosiers have a far thicker tread and will wear forever. The only set of Hoosiers I ever wore the tread off of, were a set of 26x9's that I drove on the street with frequently using a spool. Yes, I was even driving the car back and forth to work (40 miles each way) with it. This was back when I was living in an apartment, and if I took the car with me, it was my ONLY vehicle for a week at a time. Of course, the slicks weren't run ALL the time, just when I was too tired to change the tires back after 'going out' at night. You ever get pulled over for running a car through the gears up to around 100mph or so 40 miles from home... on slicks... by a very angry DETECTIVE who doesn't even have a ticket book... into the mouth of a subdivision where kids who go to the school WHERE YOU TEACH are outside? I have. Don't be alarmed. I was on a long straight stretch away from any kids and turnoffs. The detective was behind me in a chevy celebrity... and took a LONG time to catch up. I had been cruising at around 40mph for quite a while before noticing that generic brown car flying up the road behing me. ------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220 [This message has been edited by n2oMike (edited 11-12-2003).]
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 11-12-2003 01:07 PM
Could not download the clip.  Mike, I WAS speaking in generalities, not "class" specific racing. More often then not, MOST bracket cars that use a 10.5 or smaller tire will be quicker and faster on a radial slick. We have proven that about a million time or so already.
As far as wear goes, I must agree that Hoosiers seem to last a long time.
I don't think that there is a "bad" tire out there except for maybe M&H. lol (then again their inventory is probably 20+ years old, I know that their technology certainly is) ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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n2oMike
Gearhead Posts: 3058
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 11-12-2003 01:34 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Mike, I WAS speaking in generalities, not "class" specific racing. More often then not, MOST bracket cars that use a 10.5 or smaller tire will be quicker and faster on a radial slick.
No argument with the radials. I was referring to the members here who are just looking for a tire to keep their car from spinning on the occasional trip to the track... not those looking for that last couple hundreths of a second, and are willing pay a 'radial' price for it. As far as regular slicks are concerned (non radial) Hoosier and MT both provide good traction... but the treadwear advantage goes to Hoosier. That's all... Personally, I've never used a radial slick... maybe one of these days. Good Luck! ------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 11-12-2003 02:57 PM
I don't know about the 26x10 size, but I have watched several racers at Farmington over the course of this year with 28x10 M/T's run 3 or 4 passes real consistant, then on the next pass have the 60' go to crap. They then complain about how bad the track is. Funny thing is, the guys (or grrls in this case) running Hoosiers or other brands don't lose 60' time on the same pass. KK's car hooks every pass, and uses nothing more than slapper bars on the originall leaf springs and wore out air shocks for suspension. As for fast weekly racers, most of them at the Farm are running either Goodyears, or Hoosiers. You don't see many M/T's on cars at Farmington in the 14x32 or bigger size. Personally, the next pair of slicks I buy is going to be a Goodyear 14x32 slick, medium compound with a stiff sidewall. My car likes the stiff sidewall like the Hoosiers I used to run, but Hoosier doesn't offer a stiff sidewall slick in a medium compound. So Goodyear it will be.
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